Spout vs ItemCraft vs ModLoaderMP OR new ClientUtility(???)

Discussion in 'Bukkit Discussion' started by sfxworks, Sep 20, 2011.

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    Mac and Windows don't want to work together. They have different target audiences and different goals.
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    Why follow the standard role when you can make a perfect hybrid?
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    When Macdows comes out, let me know.
    Woodpeckersam and sddddgjd like this.
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    We already are. Our goal is to replace Modloader, not build it into spout
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    Honestly I would rather it be something like Linows or something. Either way, it wont come out at this rate given that attitude and will.
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    That's what I'm hoping, but it will take them a while to catch up to modloaders current capabilities. I'm putting my bets into Spout becoming a running standard because it uses Bukkit, but I'm figuring that modloader will always hold a strong niche of devs, being as wide open as it is.
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    And you've nailed it on the head. There is a stupidly huge rift between the two communities and there is always going to be a resistance to change because each side has what they are familiar with. Unfortunately, the minecraft.net 'side' is only really starting to dip their toes into client/server interactions with no real established framework on how to achieve it while those who are used to Bukkit are taking an easier approach by applying to the client what has already been done to the server and are doing so in a very formal manner.

    If anything is going to sway the server operators, it's going to be the fact that Spout uses Bukkit, which has a huge wealth of management, maintenance and monitoring plug-ins which is what ADMINS need.
    Seriously though, if you want to go on about 'working for the common good', you're really going to have to find a way to negotiate between two vastly different methodologies and background.

    As for the point on resolving the path to the jar file. I'll concede that point as I've forgotten that the path to the minecraft files are essentially static as the user never has a chance to specify their own path.
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    OH you're taking that role.
    Still it pains me to see 3 bridges go in separate directions when they're ultimately attempting to achieve the same goal. Especially when I see their perks and flaws. I mean don't get me wrong. A bridge can be built perfectly given time. Its just the fact that the time wasted isn't entirely the best use of time. Not to mention the odds of that bridge being build perfectly decrease when the workers aren't exposed to different environments. But then again what is 'perfect' anyway.

    Alright. I'll treat this as a race and contribute to balance until someone gives up or says otherwise.
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    My point is that it's not what we are wanting to do and it wouldn't mix well. Working to try to merge multiple completely different projects is simply a waste of time and effort. Doing so would hinder the development of each.
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    Thats what im use to doing bro. Course I guess this is just a bigger playground with more power in the individuals leading. Thats why I decided to take a different approach vs working in the background like I usually do.

    I mean, I'll go make one right now lol. I just finished my little schem to bo2 thingy so I have time for another project.

    ..So then what if each individuality party focuses on a specific without interfering with the other's bounds? I mean each one already has its specialty. I could at least attempt that (temporarily).

    EDIT by Moderator: merged posts, please use the edit button instead of double posting.
    Last edited by a moderator: May 19, 2016
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    Nobody is stopping you from doing it yourself, but I doubt you'll get help from the other parties.
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    It would be great to have the best of both worlds, but it rarely happens that way.

    When coding, anything is possible. The limiting factor of basically every program out there is time. The more flexibility, the more time it takes to make, and the more time it takes to maintain. Most people attempt to thwart time by adding more developers (Spout, ModLoader, etc), but then you hit a point where more devs will actually slow the project down.

    Coding standards will need to be implemented to enforce good coding habits and documentation, proper splitting of tasks to the correct devs will need to be handled, a robust source management system will need to be implemented, and a powerful bug tracking system will need to be added as well. The problem with this is that 99% of the coders I know hate setting this crap up (including me). Even more so they hate maintaining the system, and will eventually stop working on the project because they spend too much time doing what they consider work (setup and maintenance) and not enough play (coding and adding new features).

    Maybe Spout or ModLoader can make the best of both worlds, but I'm guessing it's not possible because of the sheer amount of dev time it will take to accomplish that goal. I hope they can do both, but my past experiences (not many to be honest) tells me that it won't happen.
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    Fantastic, surgeon is inspired.

    Yes but if you manage that power and combine it with efficiency it can easily produce something far greater than itself.

    So then what if the system can maintain itself? It would be easy to make a parser that would replace any "unusual standards" with the proper documentation. Especially if you give the developers a neat and tidy API. Yes most of the developers .. maybe even all of them .. probably all of them, develop their plugins because it fit between the bounds of the requirement and the developer's benefit. They got the pleasure of an accomplishment without being pressured or having to follow too many rules. So whos to say I can't make the requirement the same given some resources and automations?

    EDIT by Moderator: merged posts, please use the edit button instead of double posting.
    Last edited by a moderator: May 19, 2016
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    Well that's another part of the reason of the likely success of Spout vs ModLoader. Sure, someone will ALWAYS update modloader itself if the original author decides not to, but Bukkit and Spout and most Bukkit plugins are FOSS, GPL or LGPL on Github, fully forkable and able to be pull-requested and maintained by the community.

    As for saturation of devs, he's right. There is only so many people who can be on a team before it will slow down. Being the newest person on the team it has taken a while to fall into a balance of division of labor, because everything was previously divided between the other devs. It takes time to setup and train new people and probably the main reason I made the time was I basically have been here since the beginning trying to train myself for it to make their lives easier.

    Something like a combination of two entire teams with different schools of thought would never really work out right. It's one of the main reasons the Bukkit team and the Spout team butt heads in a lot of places. We have enough trouble with that let alone trying to also bridge to one of the minecraft forums teams would be quite stressful.
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    I dont see the teams merging because for one your talking about merging more then just the plugins its really mc server vs bukkit where modloader is made for mc and spout is made for bukkit and they exist for two different purposes.

    Now personally i think spout will go much farther then modloader since its about 10x easier to use for players and server admins.
    alta189 likes this.
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    So then you accept that which you consider a fact instead of attempting to change the problem for the better? Wow java developers really do think differently from flash devs don't they...

    I suppose I'll make the network then.

    Thanks for all of your input. Honestly though theirs too many static predictions but I'll consider them all.
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    Good luck with that. Considering you don't know java I honestly don't think you will accomplish anything, plus with the way that Spout grows you will not be able to keep up
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    Java doesn't make an entire network silly :p
    And if it did it would be horrible.

    Thanks for the WOE tho.
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    so sfx what are you going to do?
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    Why not let them work on their own projects...then see which one is obviously the more popular one. Let the server admins choose what mod they want to use. Eventually, one will end up the clear winner, and the other would eventually die out.

    If none of them die out...then that simply means the server admins have a choice between two :). Sort like the Canary Mod and Bukkit; let the server admins choose what they want to use.

    I'm pretty sure it's best to let the users and devs decide.
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    I'll continue to encourage this idea while making the network and working in the background. It'l take a good week to make but it'l be worth it. The least it will do is provide resources. Still, I encourage you all to not put your entire faith and support in Spout and instead consider alternatives. Narrow mindsets are limiting and inefficient. That doesn't exclude me or mine either. I mean I see the potential Spout has but I also see the other sides of the story. I think it would be more efficient if the three teams worked together BUT I could be wrong. Either way, it looks like that scenario is unlikely given the current path.

    Oh they can. I was just saying that doing that might not be the best method. If and when one dies out the methods and opportunities it has dies with it. Some might be inefficient some might be brilliant. But all would go down the drain . The chances of recovering those 'alternative methods' or by chance re-creating them degrade in time.

    Ya kno...

    2011-09-21 10:57:15 [FINE] Mod Loaded: "mod_BuildCraftBuilders 2.0.1" from mod_BuildCraftBuilders.class
    2011-09-21 10:57:15 [INFO] Mod Loaded: mod_BuildCraftBuilders 2.0.1
    2011-09-21 10:57:15 [FINE] Mod Loaded: "mod_BuildCraftCore 2.0.1" from mod_BuildCraftCore.class
    2011-09-21 10:57:15 [INFO] Mod Loaded: mod_BuildCraftCore 2.0.1
    2011-09-21 10:57:15 [FINE] Mod Loaded: "mod_BuildCraftEnergy 2.0.1" from mod_BuildCraftEnergy.class
    2011-09-21 10:57:15 [INFO] Mod Loaded: mod_BuildCraftEnergy 2.0.1
    2011-09-21 10:57:15 [FINE] Mod Loaded: "mod_BuildCraftFactory 2.0.1" from mod_BuildCraftFactory.class
    2011-09-21 10:57:15 [INFO] Mod Loaded: mod_BuildCraftFactory 2.0.1
    2011-09-21 10:57:15 [FINE] Mod Loaded: "mod_BuildCraftTransport 2.0.1" from mod_BuildCraftTransport.class
    2011-09-21 10:57:15 [INFO] Mod Loaded: mod_BuildCraftTransport 2.0.1
    2011-09-21 10:57:15 [FINER] bulletsEnabled set to true
    2011-09-21 10:57:15 [FINER] bombsEnabled set to true
    2011-09-21 10:57:15 [FINER] aaEnabled set to true
    2011-09-21 10:57:15 [FINER] planesExplode set to false
    2011-09-21 10:57:15 [INFO] ModLoaderMP Beta 1.7.3v4 Initialized
    2011-09-21 10:57:15 [FINE] ModLoaderMP Beta 1.7.3v4 Initialized
    2011-09-21 10:57:15 [FINE] Mod Loaded: "mod_Planes 1.7.3v16" from mod_Planes.class
    2011-09-21 10:57:15 [INFO] Mod Loaded: mod_Planes 1.7.3v16
    2011-09-21 10:57:15 [FINE] Mod Loaded: "mod_Vehicles 1.7.3v4" from mod_Vehicles.class
    2011-09-21 10:57:15 [INFO] Mod Loaded: mod_Vehicles 1.7.3v4
    2011-09-21 10:57:15 [INFO] Starting minecraft server version Beta 1.7.3
    2011-09-21 10:57:17 [INFO] Spout 1.1.339 has been initialized
    Well, I guess if Spout works only server side it wont cause many compatibility issues. That goes without saying, results may vary. Gonna continue to test this.

    EDIT by Moderator: merged posts, please use the edit button instead of double posting.
    Last edited by a moderator: May 19, 2016
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    I'd like to chime in here as a server operator and minecraft addict...

    I've been a server admin for many games. From Battlefield 1942, to BF: Desert Combat, to TF2, and now Minecraft.

    As a server admin, I appreciate the hell out of the concept of Spout. I'd love to tell my users, hey, run this Spoutcraft setup, and don't worry about any more .jar editing craziness. You know what? Had I never installed Industrialcraft/Buildcraft, I would be running a Spout/Bukkit server today. That being said, I did install IC/BC, and my users, and myself, got a taste. I was running an IC/BC server before I ever ran Bukkit, and did so for a few months. I was EXTREMELY pleased when krnlyng ported these over to run in the Bukkit jar, as I was very intrigued about Bukkit, and wanted to check it out!

    So I grabbed Bukkit, threw the modloadermp/bukkit ports of IC/BC into it, threw our world into that folder, and launched it.

    What did I discover?


    But I was worried, as I knew our world was now perched on top of a gooey bodged together wedding cake of custom craziness, and the slighest thing could upset our balance...


    Check out IC... Oh no, no porting.. must wait for IC2.. of which there is not even SMP...check out buildcraft... in the works... mcforge... in the works... Bukkit?... Dinnerbone's on it! Nice....
    Ok, leave the old 1.7.3 server online, no worries... but users want new stuff, so they migrate to our new 1.8 server...

    Our 1.8 server, with the latest Dev bukkit, seems to run very nicely... However, the Modloader ports of IC/BC don't work with 1.8, and IC will never be updated for 1.8, we have to wait for IC2. So we've been playing in a vanilla world with Bukkit plugins. And we're very grateful to have our basic Bukkit plugins... but.. oh man.. the lack of IC/BC....

    I'm sorry, but IC/BC have completely ruined every one of my users for the vanilla experience. They are so completely game changing, that regular Minecraft is now utterly boring. Our 1.8 server sits there running, and we log in and work on stuff, but no pipes, no quarries, no electricity, no recyclers, no massfabs, no IC/BC... it's really boring, and is spending more and more time empty.. the magic is gone...

    My point? IC/BC is SO good, that as a server admin, Spout is completely irrelevant to me at this time. A plugin that says [Spout] in the title, I have to completely disregard, as the modloadermp customs are not compabitble with it, and the modloadermp customs are what my users, and I myself, want. Now, if Spout/Spoutcraft are updated for 1.8's Bukkit RB, and IC/BC aren't, I will be trying it out, and at least I can see the PigGrinder work lol. But as SOON as IC2/BC are working as Bukkit modloadermp mods, Spout is going to be removed and we will never look back.

    What I see here is something similar to NES/SegaMasterSystem or VHS/Beta. Sure, SMS and Beta were BETTER technological platforms, but NES and VHS had the CONTENT. Spout may be a BETTER system for client usability, but as far as I'm aware, it has no killer app, and until it does, it will be the second runner. If there was a spout plugin that just completely kicked ass and added as much playability and content to MC that the IC/BC combo add, I'd be all over it in a heartbeat.

    I will say this, my users have gotten VERY good at updating their .jar files. Even a monkey can open a door and ride a bike if you train him to do it, and have him do it over and over again.

    I want to run Spout, I REALLY do. If you're a server admin, and you're having fun with Minecraft Bukkit/Spout plugins, do NOT check out IC/BC, because it's like crack, man, and you won't be able to stop. Just stay with vanilla, ignorance is bliss!!! It sounds like, as of right now, the things that Modloadermp can do, Spout cannot do them yet, but SpoutDevs are working on it. Is it even possible to do with Spout what modloadermp can do, in the term of additional machines/pipe actions/etc? I have no idea.

    Right now, we are all kind of bored with the new 1.8 stuff, and want industrialcraft back at least. We are eagerly awaiting IC2, and are hoping it can be ported to Bukkit. If it isn't ported to Bukkit, we will have to lose Bukkit and go back to plain unmodded. Perhaps then there will be a Spout plugin that adds automation/completexity/additional tech levels to minecraft that would mimic IC/BC.

    Anyway, I just wanted to chime in with some viewpoints from an actual server operator/mc addict. These are completely objective third party viewpoints from a non-dev perspective, purely from a playability/fun/serveradmin view. I love all this stuff, and I'd love a way to run IC2/BC as a spout type plugin that would require my monkeys to think less.

    Keep up all the awesome work, all of you!!!

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    I think one thing people are forgetting is that the spout client itself has alot that the mc client doesnt i think me and most of my users noticed a 10 fps increase using spout vs mc.
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    @Aox here's the interesting part though: Spout aims to prevent all that trouble you're going through.

    The current style of client-side modding is still leading to many compatibility issues with every update.
    They require manual steps from every user.

    Spout aims to create an environment like Bukkit, where plugins work across different MC versions with only an update from Bukkit (minus a few exceptions and API changes).
    And even better, drive the plugins from the server instead of the client.
    This approach is just inherently incompatible with the other projects.

    So yes, right now you're in a bit of a pickle.
    But this is not the first time we're in this situation.
    Back in the hMod days, many plugins like Minecraft Mania didn't care that much for using it.
    But eventually as they saw the potential they switched over, then later again with Bukkit.

    Rome wasn't built in 1 day, neither will Spout be.
    There was pretty much the same resistance when Bukkit was created, many claiming hMod was all that was needed.
    Now hMod (in the form of CanaryMod) is hardly used anymore.

    @sfxworks You're trying to bridge between different development teams, yet you seem to ignore most of what they say.
    You're not addressing any of the issues voiced.

    How do you expect to bridge these projects if you can't even communicate clearly with 1 side of the team?
    Your weak understanding of the technical challenges involved with your suggestions isn't helping either..
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    My entire intention of starting this thread WAS to listen to what all of you had to say. I have responded to every post and properly responded to all 'issues' addressed. What are you talking about? What have I not referenced or addressed?

    Honestly though, to say I want to "bridge projects" isn't my intention anymore since the Spout party isn't entirely willing to do so. You all have moral and optimism but as you said Rome wasn't built in a day. That being said if they had a surplus in resources manpower and efficiency they could of easily built it in 2. this is just an expression and taking literally means something is wrong with you

    I suppose the only alternative would be to work within bounds. Rather than modding core class files and causing compatibility issues do something external so it wouldn't effect others while achieving your goal. If that isn't (and it probably isn't) possible then I would suggest shooting for one thing at a time vs an entire everything. You all have the moral but you fail to see your project in the eyes of others. That's the main thing I am worried about. Its like a world. You can claim it all for yourself and start building your mega project on those 5000+ chunks or you can work with other 3rd parties to make what others could perceive as "magic".

    I on the other hand will continue to be the satellite monitoring the end user beaming down the necessary information when requested or triggered. (No seriously. Get user x y z. If hes in a certain area play an mp3 for him. Beats integrating it with the client and causing a mess of compatibility issues.)

    Also @Aox brings up a good point. Good system (or the intentions of making it so) but no "killer app" to boast it with. Of course this doesn't make the product but STILL I advise you to set aside your differences and use the manpower efficiently. Otherwise its a competitive struggle with the failing party left for dead.
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    If you want to argue about a plugin to make spout amazing no its not out yet but i dont imagine industrial craft or any of the others was out with mc or after a few weeks or even months of or even mod loader was out and working in that time and if it was i bet it didnt have many mods with it.
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    Thats only because Spout doesn't have all the features mlmp does. That goes without saying mlmp might need a cleanup.

    Lets see...
    I already know texture packs can be automatically set by the server without a client mod
    Music and all the same with flash listening for server data in the background.
    Chunk caching also can rely on a 3rd party tool. Still I would avoid it considering potential out of memory issues. (Honestly I want to re-write the method minecraft stores its flatfiles of fail. 1.4 was a major improvement but its still flat file)
    Things like video settings can be changed IF this test goes right (which is entirely dependent on if minecraft keeps the video settings file in-sync with itself)

    ..The rest are just bells and whistles. You all might have a good API (though I can't entirely read java structures yet) but that alone can not stand against the current successors and their ports. Not to mention to ask the developers to port their mods AGAIN is ...

    Yes but Spout, at the moment, is currently limited and is being made from scratch. I don't even know if it can support entities yet. That's why I think they should all make one great success vs what they are all doing now.

    EDIT by Moderator: merged posts, please use the edit button instead of double posting.
    Last edited by a moderator: May 19, 2016
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    I hate to say i hate mod loader but the issue with it is everything is client sided vs server sided which will hit a limit at some point especially for compatibility.
    And no its because the spout client itself includes alot of fixes/improvements for the mc.
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    This is as much as we can do until notch releases his source. Honestly though compatibility issues can easily be resolved if efficiency is met. Thats why im making this network. The current limits can't be surpassed but we are FAR from the limit.
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    I don't think you really want that windows 3.1 code in your windows 7.
    I also don't think you your tunnel engineers to work with your bridge engineers, just because they can both get you from point A to point B doesn't mean the methods are related.
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