Plugin Support and its issues

Discussion in 'Bukkit Discussion' started by unimatrix, Oct 3, 2011.

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    unimatrix Bukkit Sponsor

    hello people ,

    I found a plugin recently that seemed like a nice addition to my server so i decided to try it out and read their wiki page. Altough it had alot of information some key details were not in it as i have learned by trial and error.

    When i joined their irc channel when i was setting up my config files i asked questions to how i best build the config file. None of the devs wanted to answer my question nor did they make any effort on to explain what would be the best course of action. One of the users of the plugin pmed me and we talked and found a way to best construct the config.

    I do understand that dev's cannot be there to help you with your config files but their wiki lacked any information if certain actions could or couldnt work.

    So i worked on it some more and had everything setup as i wanted it. Then i got console errors that i couldnt explain.

    I joined their channel once more pastebinning the console errors , none helped me. I then began fiddling with the config some more and found that these console errors were caused by disabling the default class to default=false.

    Nowhere on their wiki nor forum was there a post that there had to be a default class. The irc support remained silent. So i had to spend hours trying to figuring it out by trail and error.

    Eventualy i did , thank god.

    Until that point i was like ok i understand that these people didnt have alot of time on their hands to help me with their plugin and why console errors were popping up. Thankfully if i would have the same issue with my other plugins the matter would have been resolved within seconds by either the devs or the users who had experianced the same thing.

    Then the next problem was a cmd didnt work , i asked them what might cause it as i added the correct permission nodes to the users. Yet they didnt have permission to execute this command. Luckely one of the users who used the same perm system as i do was there. After i looked at it i asked his verion and what seemed i wasnt up to date with my permission version. Cant really say thats the plugins dev fault but they could have asked what system are you using etc.. Instead they chose to remain silent and ignore my Q while talking about other crap.

    Then i got the cmd working , the next issue is and still is if they execute the cmd it doesnt get writen in the file unless they logout and login. A simple problem which can only have one or 2 causes. either with the plugin itself or with my permission version. But since the other person who helped me before didnt have this issue i was thinking it must be with the plugin.

    Of cource they didnt like the idea it might be their plugin , they couldnt reproduce the issue and just gave me a cold shoulder. So i persisted and continued to talk about it.

    And suddently i gave them my version number. And SHOCK it was because the version i had running of their plugin could have some issues. Do bare i mind i already gave my version number 3 times before, ofc getting ignored.

    So my next Question was can i get your version number from the guy who was having no issues.

    Here is their reply :

    [22:07:43] <@person2> on the next RB it will be supported
    [22:07:56] <@person2> if you're brave you can test the latest dev versions
    [22:07:59] <@person2> but we dont suggest it
    [22:08:10] <@person2> and other than you reporting bugs to us, we offer no support for corruption/issues
    [22:08:26] <{unimatrix}> ah ok
    [22:08:31] <person1> i like livin on the edge!
    [22:08:31] <{unimatrix}> so if the next RB comes out
    [22:08:35] <person1> lulz
    [22:08:35] <{unimatrix}> my problem would be solved
    [22:08:40] <{unimatrix}> if pex is also updated
    [22:08:42] <person1> when*
    [22:08:47] <person3> reminds me, must yell at PEX devs to synchronise properly, so that I can finally have perm-skills
    [22:09:20] <{unimatrix}> person3
    [22:09:24] <{unimatrix}> can i get your plugin.jar file
    [22:09:28] <person1> NO
    [22:09:29] <{unimatrix}> since you dont have any issues
    [22:09:34] <person1> kik
    [22:09:36] <person1> lol
    [22:09:36] <person3> !?
    [22:09:41] * @person4 chuckles
    [22:10:12] <{unimatrix}> what
    [22:10:12] <@person4> {unimatrix}: if you pay attention you'll know where to get the dev builds
    [22:10:29] * person1 looks inside copmuter case
    [22:10:32] <{unimatrix}> person3 what is your exact version
    [22:10:37] <{unimatrix}> so i can go grab what you have
    [22:10:37] * person1 looks under carpet
    [22:10:38] <person1> D:
    [22:10:45] <person3> secret-build 187b2
    [22:10:51] <person1> noob
    [22:11:01] <person1> im using super-secret-build 33692c
    [22:11:06] <person1> NOOB
    [22:11:16] <person3> :'(
    22:11:16] <person3> :'(
    [22:11:50] <@person2> jesus christ
    [22:12:26] <person3> yes?
    [22:12:35] <person3> ah wait, sorry, must take my pills...
    [22:12:59] <person5> Well if person4 didn't keep pushing failed builds, maybe you'd only be 100 builds behind, person2 ;)
    [22:13:01] * @person4 hands person3 his pills.
    [22:13:16] <{unimatrix}> fine if you dont wish to tell me , but resorting to such things doesnt show alot of class

    i blocked their names ofc.

    point of all this : If someone comes with an issue you dont treat people this way but should be atleast guide them to a knowledge base or try and help them. Of course i use alot of other plugins where they do exactly that.

    PS after they the plugin devs read this they banned me from their channel.
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    Thank god
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    QQ more.

    No one there gets paid, no one is obliged to be there every time you ask something.

    They are providing you with a quality plugin, free of charge, that has none of your issues when they work with it.

    If you don't present the appropriate information in the appropriate fashion and continually pester people who are clearly not there to cater to your every whim and issue, obviously they won't take kindly to someone repeatedly filling a chat with pages of nonsense that they can't help you with.

    If you had actually presented your issues as per requested in the help forum, your problem would have been easily solved. You should be happy they even provide a chatroom and an attentive forum for you to go to.

    Get over yourself, if you dont like it, don't use the plugin.

    boohoo son boohoo.

    EDIT: They also told you prior to this SMALL part of the conversation that they dont recommend using the dev builds. Hence they dont support someone giving you their jars.
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    unimatrix Bukkit Sponsor

    oh im sorry for asking a question and reporting an issue. Your right i shouldnt ask for help on an issue i should go get a java degree and fix it myself
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    if you have an issue, post it in the plugins thread, if no one answers you in the next 5 days, throw that plugin away and take another one. as you can see (trial and error) on the irc of someone could be not very polite ppl (script kiddies e.g.)
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    unimatrix Bukkit Sponsor

    true but sadly i like the plugin
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    You never even created a proper forum thread/issue ticket, nor did you look to see if your issue was already resolved on the forum.

    That said, if you had done so, you would have had your problem resolved almost instantly. You can act like they're belittling you, but the truth is you're just being a lazy brat who didnt even bother to read through all of the available material nor use the help forum they supply you with.
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    Sorry, but I think a lot of people, myself included, would go to the irc support first. You would think that it would be easier to talk and get a better response. Also, if they are online and reading it, you would expect them to reply faster.
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    Yeah its so fair/efficient to ask the people who are busy actually developing the game, questions that can be answered by simply reading. Questions that have already been answered and solved and publicly documented for all to see, in a designated place.

    No, you're right its much easier and better to go into a developer chatroom, with a chat with 30 other people and post all of your issues in hopes that maybe someone will answer you. Yes.

    Lets call IT before reading an instruction manual.

    I just think its funny he spent multiple hours in the chat and writing up this post, when he could have just read through/posted in the help forum and been done with everything within an hour.
    If only he put as much effort into learning as he did complaining.
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    I realize you are trying to be witty here, but in fact, yes, some knowledge about what you are dealing with would indeed help!

    That's because running a multiplayer server of an unfinished game along with constantly developed plugins does in fact require a bit more than download, clicky clicky, and giving yourself a fancy chat color in-game to impress your facebook friends.
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    Then why have a support IRC?

    If they have already been answered, then why didn't they just send him the link to the information?

    If they had just said that they were busy, and that he should try re-reading the documentation, this thread probably wouldn't have been created.
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    Did you pay for this plugin? Or for support? Didn't think so. The devs owe you nothing, and it's their choice when/if they want to give you support.
    r3Fuze, Sleaker and TechNinja like this.
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    Hell, I ran a server for a while without java knowledge and google got me through it all. Have to work a bit harder at it. But yea, java degree helps :cool:
    TechNinja likes this.
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    I'm bothered by the responses by some people on this thread. The 'I do this for free, so you can't complain', attitude is seriously wrong.

    As a plugin dev, I apologize on behalf of these misguided developers, and hope they don't tarnish the image of bukkit devs overall.

    As for your situation, I agree with your actions and overall analysis. You certainly took the appropriate actions, and definitely took more effort than the average admin to track down and fix your issues. I wish every admin was as proactive as you seem to be.

    I think that plugin devs either need to explicitly state that they don't provide support in their threads, and provide step by step setup guides OR provide help to admins and users case-by-case and not get insulting.

    Additionally, a way to rate plugins by support, content, etc would help expose issues to the community.

    Double post

    EDIT by Moderator: merged posts, please use the edit button instead of double posting.
    Last edited by a moderator: May 20, 2016
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    Lunar Delta

    Afforess' reply is the most sensible one yet. I am started by the unbridled hostility I am seeing here. If that's how you feel, then you really shouldn't bother replying at all.
    Don Redhorse likes this.
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    I am not a developer, nor do my opinions reflect theirs. I was merely present for the majority of the interactions and help out where I can. Several of the people in the chat talking were not the developers.

    He failed to post the parts where he would just come into the chat and post his paragraphs and paragraphs of complaints and reasons repeatedly, on more than one occasion. They do explicitly say and told him directly, multiple times that they dont provide support for interactions with other plugins.

    The fact is unimatrix did not use the proper channels to ask his questions. If you actually look at the dev's forums they are all VERY helpful and more than happy to answer questions, and in a very timely manner.

    When people take the time to create an area specified for such interactions, with a public knowledge base and an ISSUE TRACKER, where all are welcome to voice their problems, it is obnoxious to go somewhere and ask for help on things that have already been resolved.
    The help forum and wiki links, along with conditions of them helping you (information you need to present, look here first before asking), in the chat are all posted in the topic. He did not use any of the resources available to him, nor did he present them in the manner they ask.
    A simple visit to the forum would have solved his problem.

    You lot can act like self-righteous douchebags, but the fact is these people took the time out to make a fantastic plugin and even an effective place to ask questions, share ideas and contribute. He didn't follow any of the rules or channels they so helpfully provided and was very invasive and rude in doing so, OF COURSE he neglected the entire conversation prior to the later joking.

    FYI: These people are extremely helpful and hardworking. They only banned him because even after providing help for him, he obnoxiously made this topic.

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    I'm not familiar with the entire situation, nor claim to be, but this one line leads me to support the OP, and not you.
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    Of course. Its always intelligent and reasonable to take sides without knowing all of the information.

    Edit: It so obviously makes your opinions valid.
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    I have to completely agree. I once had this one problem with single-player mods that was literally a change in one parameter, but it took me a week on the risucraft irc to find this out, because no one seemed interested in actually helping. I personally have always liked the bukkit forums better for asking for help, but there's no single=player modding section T_T
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    I'd recommend you simply stop posting. Each post you make damages your side of the argument further.

    I know exactly how you feel. Client mods are a lot worse for support than bukkit plugins.
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    Of course, because logic, reasoning and knowledge of the entire situation is always weakening to an argument.
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    And posting "SUCK IT, GG"? How does that help an argument?
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    Oh. That's what you call. If that's logic, I'll take whatever is the opposite of that.
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    I find it amusing the number of "plugin developers" who don't even understand that the mission of being a software developer is to provide a solution that results in a satisfactory end-user experience.

    There is a world of difference between a hack that can code a bit and a software developer who provides a solution. You can be the world's best java programmer, but if you don't document your work and make it reasonably easy to use, then please stop calling yourself a "developer" and stop wasting everyone's time.

    If you're just writing a plugin for your own server that isn't properly documented in its wiki--and you refuse to offer support, then please do the community a big favor and don't release the plugin. Missing documentation is a bug.
    Don Redhorse, unimatrix and Afforess like this.
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    Disagree.. Usually it isn't that hard to figure it out.
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    It doesn't, I felt like posting it. Its about as meaningful as the OP's argument.

    Just like the OP and most people, they all only choose to see what you want, completely disregarding the bulk of the message.

    The OP only chose to see his side of the situation, and only posted the very end of the entire ordeal, intentionally leaving out the rest of the chat where people were actually helping him, and where he was being really obnoxious and overbearing.

    Just like how you all only choose to see the very last bit of my post. GG


    Also, you obviously havent read the thread in its entirety, because the developers of this particular plugin are quite responsive on their forums, often replying within the hour if not less and maintain their wiki almost constantly and especially with every release.

    Their forum is pretty much filled with all of the knowledge anyone would need to resolve their issues, and it enables people to ask questions if need be.

    People supporting the OP are apparently ignorant to the facts.

    For all of you too lazy to read:

    - The developers are extremely helpful and organized, a glance at their forums proves this.

    - They make themselves available and are happy to help in their support channel if you have done everything in order to help yourself first. They state this in their forum and chat.

    - Nearly all of the information on the plugin and how to receive appropriate support is documented on their wiki/forum.

    - They make it clearly known that they do not provide support for other plugins.

    - The OP did not utilize any of these resources, read any of the rules or documentation, nor did he approach them in an appropriate manner.
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    unimatrix Bukkit Sponsor


    they may be quite responive on their forum and i believe that but what if the problem you are encountering isnt there ? And there is an irc where you can directly talk to the devs ? And more importantly i did try to not mention the plugin itself , i may not like the way they acted , their plugin is still nice work and i did not talk about the plugin itself. You act like you are defending their work where it is not needed.

    I have been running a server since september 2010. I would imagin i know how to install and configure a plugin by now wouldnt you agree? And if that wasnt enough i also manage a few servers ( 12 in total ) . Still i dont know how to config a config ?

    Or i dont know how to read a plugin install guide , I did read their wiki and their forum. Yet the problem i had wasnt stated there. After 2 days of trying to solve this i insisted on irc with my problem. And finaly i have been given an answer after i was forced to persist and it resulted into this thread. I have worked many years as customer support and i would never in my wildest dreams treat customers like this . Even if they are free users.

    @affores I totaly agree with you, your a spout dev nice :p
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    FYI: You're not a customer, and this isn't customer support. They owe you nothing. Everything thats available is there because they allow it.

    If you had posted your issue in the forum with the appropriate information, you would have gotten an appropriate response. If you had read nearly any of the recent posts regarding permissions you would have found your answer.

    I can personally tell you there are at least 3 posts on the first page that would have told you why your setup doesn't work.

    If you don't like the service then don't use their product. Have fun not knowing how to use one of the best plugins for minecraft even though everything you need is right in front of you.

    I can tell logic doesn't sit well with you folk so I'll leave it at that.

    Edit: FYI Persons 1, 3 and 5 are not developers and are not connected to the plugin.
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    Despite TechNinja's abrassiveness...
    unimatrix didn't post nearly the entire conversation or the multiple other times he entered the channel to get help and subsequently complain or tell us that it was our fault his configuration wasn't working. Yes things could have been handled better, yes unimatrix could have taken a better proactive approach by trying to read more on his own. That's not how it played out, so get over it?

    Apparently in bukkit world, plugin users don't need to read the resources given. and Plugin Developers aren't allowed to make mistakes, or have incomplete documentation without getting berated for it. Glad to know this is the community.
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    As I mentioned earlier, that attitude is not only wrong, but destructive. I suggest you write that in bold at the top of your thread and begin watching your userbase shrink.

    Ad hominem attacks - awesome. We call those logical fallacies.

    Really? That's not what I gathered from this thread. Re-Read the OP. Look at the part where unimatrix checked the wiki for documentation.

    Rather, I find this is the community that enjoys leaping to absurd(ly wrong) conclusions w/o facts and details.
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