Discussion in 'Community News and Announcements' started by vubui, Sep 5, 2014.
What kind of damages do you think they should sue for?
Good luck. They knew about the project and chose not to act. Going back after the fact and trying that now would likely get them laughed out of court. They did after all know what Bukkit was doing and chose to ignore it. Nothing would happen along those lines.
sciguyryan Precisely. And you've hit on an important point I've been making all along - this is actually why I believe Wolvereness was paid to issue the DMCA takedown - in order for the deal to go through Microsoft would have to guard their copyright and trademarks (which they acquired) which means they needed to take the project down.
If it were to ever go to court and they didn't take it down, it could be proven that they didn't enforce their copyrights which is a very dangerous thing to do and lose control of the server software. Case-in-point for those who've studied copyright and trademark law: Band-aid, escalators, Aspirin (and on, and on)
It's important to realize that this action isn't out of malice against this community or open-source or anything like that. It's simply an effort to protect their assets. It's really too early to tell how Minecraft will fare without the PC SMP mod community operating at 100%. They could make big strides by announcing a Mod API as the next big thing for Minecraft - if I were a Product Manager at MSFT over Minecraft that's what I would do.
Which of course is pretty useless. At least for those players out there with real operating systems.
Also i think MS will even more close-source Minecraft, with each and any feature only available on windows. Oh, and you'll get new stuff only when you buy the game new every year (or so). Just like Windows itself. Be happy if you don't need new Hardware as well...
I _want_ to hope, but until now, Microsoft did never good to the things it touched...
Copyright isn't like trademarks -- you don't lose it because you fail to stop infringement. J.K. Rowling won't lose the copyright to the Harry Potter books because they are widely pirated on the Internet.
If Mojang had ever thought the Bukkit Project's net.minecraft.server code posed a risk to the company, it could have shut it down. A single email from Mojang's lawyer to the project team would have gotten it removed.
Instead, Mojang made the choice to not question that code, leading to 150,000 servers running on Bukkit Project code today (and other projects using it for more servers).
I say Bukkit just stops participating in the Minecraft Community for a while, just to SHOW Microsoft how much of a failure the game will be if they change too much stuff. I think that they are full of crap when they say the game is just going to get better, because Microsoft is totally money-hungry and will do anything to make more. My ideas are the they will start to charge monthly fees to play multiplayer, have to PAY for mods and texture-packs. Not to mention we will probably lose our current accounts, and have to buy the game again on our Microsoft oriented Email Address. Say goodbye to the Minecraft that we know, and say hello to Micro-Craft, a 100% PAYED GAME that can't seem to not keep charging you money. Most likely there will be less support for the Mac, iOS, PlayStation, and Android systems, and A LOT more support for the Microsoft Operating systems. I am sorry to all people who like the game how it is now, but things are going to change, and they are going to get bad.
So name some real Operating Systems? Is Microsoft Windows not a real OS? If not, then why do you say and promote that? I'll answer for you... because it IS a real operating system, and ignorant and stubborm people really feel the need to bash on Microsoft when they have no other reason other than The SIMS to blame for it.
Did Microsoft not create the very first and usable OS for consumers?
Does Microsoft not innovate, and reinnovate, and innovate on top of that each and every year?
Does the majority of the entire world use Windows as their Operating System? Why is that?
I guess Microsoft could be like Apple and release an almost identical system / phone as its predecessor, spend millions if not billions in marketing campaigns to promote its new and wonderous product, and call it the next thing. And for some reason, people flock to this and spend a month's worth of paychecks to get that new phone, os or whatever it is that they are selling.
Here is a REAL phone based OS from a company who creates the worlds best PC based OS:
And if Microsoft chooses to change Minecraft to a .net / xna solution for the pc, then I'd have to applaud that decision.
I just got warned from Curse for discussing something not in line with the rules. My apologies Curse... but i'm still trying to find what it is that I said.
Edit: There, I just edited what I think may have been offensive.
EDIT by Moderator: merged posts, please use the edit button instead of double posting.
I think not, there was others both earlier and at about the same time. What "Microsoft" did was to bring on an affordable and usable OS/GUI not bound to specific devices. I think they also stole a little from the others at the time .
^ Right! I guess that's what I meant by a "usable" OS for consumers. Something that a typical Joe could have benefited from. Of course, that Joe could had benefited from an old unix based OS from the 60's...
Oh wait, i'm not talking about Microsoft Windows... something a bit earlier is what I had in mind, and used.
There's some contestability to text-based OSiris aiming at end users, though.
I contest! I played graphical games on DOS, debugged in DOS, cracked games in DOS (yes, cracked is a term not really used any longer), programmed in DOS, used full fledged word processors and spreadsheets in DOS, used all GUI based windows starting with Windows 1.0, Windows for Workgroups and v.3.1, which were technically DOS programs (ran on top of)...
@OP enable profile posts, it would make your care for the community a little more convincing.
Right, all living beings have played graphical games on DOS .
You mean, besides ~20 Years as a systems administrator, using several OS (including several versions of windows)? Well, yes, bites me. You have the insights here. How dare i questioning your years of experience...
Speaking about ignorant and stubborn, you may continue to offend people as you like. As usual when fanboys don't have arguments... but don't expect me to participate in this.
sjeez, can you people just stop?
since when has bukkit todo with Microsoft or Microsoft with bukkit?
now also stop talking about what os is best the awnser is NONE, hence if you got experience or not what schools learn about this is not always trustable and there are always vulnabilitys around.
windows is not safe and some linux are not safe, these discussions are getting old.
Haha... i'm proud of my DOS gaming days!
Ok, so maybe I shouldn't be so stubborn myself... so my apologies. I've used ALL OS's that Micrsoft has put out... everything from DOS 1.0, to Windows 1.0, all the way up to W8, to Unix, Linux, the old MAC os'es, to just about everything. I don't consider myself as a "Fan Boy", I just know that Microsoft puts in more effort and innovation in their OS's than most others (I'm not saying all), and I enjoy trying new things, new technology, etc. so the problem I have is when you have these teenagers running around (including my 2 teenagers) bashing on Microsoft.... when... they use it every, single, day... and they have no reason to bash. Let me put then on a Mac and lets see how much complaining they do. Matter of fact, I think im gonna do it. They will instantly become a fraction of a percent as efficient using it as compared to using their Windows counterpart, wont be able to run the majority of their games, Office, etc. I see the forums, and its usually the younger croud that does the bashing.
For those who have used and experienced all the diff version of OS'es out there, like yourself (20 years as an Admin) and myself, then you have a good argument for choosing something other than Windows and I probably chose the wrong words when addressing your comments.
I guess my whole stubbornness comes from listening to those Whipper Snappers...
Um.... it has a lot to do with Microsoft. They just bought them (Bukkit) out.
EDIT by Moderator: merged posts, please use the edit button instead of double posting.
No it's not.
Its sad that a COO displays his personal disappointment as a fact.
Being former co-owner of Blender I'm personally pretty disappointed in the way Mojang is handling this.
I think it's pretty sad (~thousand-fold). Despite still lacking a lot of information, this should be very obvious.
In this case it's important to read between the details of what Mojang is/is not doing to what they should have done.
vubui Mojang made a critical strategic error by withholding the Mod API. Recent events have revealed the blunder of taking the mod community for granted and allowing something that should have (and could have) been taken in house (and indeed, had the opportunity to do so with the apparent prior acquisition of Bukkit), but did not.
Mojang and others might ask us why the mod community is critically important for the game. The clear answer here is that any mod community is much like CinemaScore in that it is an indicator of the momentum a game has behind it. Mojang is a comparatively small shop with a limited ability to respond to community demands and limited means to push the game to grow as quickly as its demand dictates. The mod community represents unfulfilled demand for a game and Minecraft's mod community is HUGE (1.4M submissions on just that site alone). Some people might argue that non-PC/Mac sales shadow that of their counterparts but I argue that in terms of momentum and community continuity/enthusiasm, non-PC/Mac versions are largely irrelevant to the future of Minecraft and just represent a medium-term revenue stream for Mojang.
Prior to 1.8 the last substantive update that Minecraft received was over 10 months prior (1.7.2). The 1.7.2 update itself did not provide enough substance on its own to keep players engaged over that time in terms of pure vanilla Minecraft. In addition, the update included many changes to the world generator which players in worlds with heavy investments likely would not ever see (why throw your creations away to get some new biomes?). The community dutifully took up the slack and pressed on with a wink and a nod from a Mojang incapable of understanding the gift that the community represents. "Mod API is coming!*" they said.
I think it's important to point out that Minecraft is reaching near-total market saturation. This means that at this point just about everyone who will at some point buy Minecraft, already have bought Minecraft. And you only have to buy Minecraft once. I believe that Realms (and the EULA) is an attempt at cracking open a recurring revenue stream model for the company. However, I think we'll see how that particular ship has sailed because Mojang failed to recognize the importance of the SMP mod community and its dependence upon a mod API, and how their Realms strategy will fail without it due to the mod community carrying the weight on Minecraft innovation.
Mojang's position appears to be this: The net.minecraft.server code was not written by the company, so it does not affect the closed source status of Minecraft's official client and server. Company COO Vu Bui said that Mojang supports the Bukkit Project and wants it to continue, so it officially has no problem with the net.minecraft.server code in the project.
Mojang has allowed net.minecraft.server code to be a part of Bukkit for years, and Mojang employees provided advice on how that code should be implemented. COO Vu Bui recently reaffirmed the company's support for Bukkit.
If Mojang doesn't challenge the presence of net.minecraft.server code in the project, I don't see why it should be an issue for anyone else.
It wasn't an issue for Wolvereness for the 30 months he contributed to the project. He made 63 commits to net.minecraft.server code. It only became an issue for him when he (and a bunch of other volunteers) got mad at Mojang following the EULA change and Mojang telling people (again) that the company owns the project.
EDIT by Moderator: merged posts, please use the edit button instead of double posting.
Wolvereness was excersing the rights he has.
Mojang apparently didn't care about their EULA for years while Minecraft was blowing up, they suddenly decided to enforce their rights for whatever reason.
Just like Wolvereness then chose to.
If Mojang can enforce their rights according to their licenses, even if they choose not to for a while, I don't see why anyone would have a problem with Wolvereness doing the same.
Mojang had the right to change the EULA to Minecraft at any time. Minecraft is closed source proprietary software.
Wolvereness has much more limited rights in regard to Bukkit. He contributed his code freely under open source licenses. Unless he can prove his rights were violated -- which is dubious given that Mojang willingly allows net.minecraft.server code in Bukkit -- he has no grounds to withdraw his code.
Disappointing to see it go this way...
That's not always true (even if an EULA states it). Ex Post Facto changes have been struck down before when unreasonable changes are applied backwards (in time) from the point of them changing. Just because you change stuff now does not necessarily mean it will revoke things previously stated (or even clarify things that previously weren't). It can but it is in no way guaranteed - don't let the "we reserve the right to change the EULA/license at any time" spiel catch you. It doesn't always stick!
This is incorrect for several reasons the most important of which I will outline here. Firstly. Mojang neglected to tell anyone they magically obtained Bukkit as part of the deal to employ some of their staff. He could for one argue code was contributed under false pre tenses since the actual owners of the project were unclear. He believed he was submitting to a team when in fact they no longer owned it, contributions under false presence like that can be grounds for having them removed.
Additionally. It is the act of combining the open GPL code with the closed MC server software that invalidates the license. Mojang never agreed to permit the use of any of their software it in the first place (at an official level, as is pointed out via a direct response in the DMCA its self). This means that the GPL license is violated and reverts back to a standard license where the owner retains all rights to their code. Meaning he is well within is rights to enforce his rights in this matter.
I think the relation of Mojang towards Bukkit is no stated correctly by you, either. While the question is interesting, if the new EULA can apply to already existent relations, it stays unclear if the old EULA would suffice to rip them apart anyway, apart from questions about the special role of Bukkit for the non-general case. In any case, most of what you write is being contested by others in pretty reasonable ways, stating it as "final" won't make it more striking.
Not at all. There was no evidence of their ownership of the project until they announced it far after the supposed purchase date.
The difference is that I actually paid a legal expert to look at this issue and provide me with a breakdown of the risks and mitigations (mainly to ensure my own servers were safe from takedown but also to see if anything could actually be done). The outlook was bleak and unless you have either paid a legal advisor of your own who is more qualified or are a legal expert yourself I will stick with the advice I have been given.
I'm also not really interested in a debate on the matter - just presenting the information for people as is. People are, always, welcome to ignore it at their leisure. It really doesn't matter to me at all
Mojang buying Bukkit seems pretty clear to me from the 2012 announcement:
Bukkit Officially Joins Mojang
EvilSeph: "As of today, the Bukkit team has joined Mojang."
But if the community was unclear about that, why aren't you mad at EvilSeph and the other team leads? They knew they had sold it.
EvilSeph on Twitter last month: "Yes, Mojang does own Bukkit. Them acquiring us was a condition to being hired."
There is no clause in an open source license that says you can revoke permission to use your code if you were confused about who owns the project.
Mojang owning the Bukkit Project makes little difference where the code is concerned. It was made available forever under an open source license and people have permission to extend the code if they follow the GPL in the Bukkit API Library and the LGPL in CraftBukkit.
In a practical sense, all Mojang owns are the trademark, domain name and the admin accounts on www.bukkit.org.
Anyone could start a new fork today under a new name with all Bukkit and CraftBukkit references removed.
Mojang has supported the inclusion of the net.minecraft.server code in the Bukkit Project for years and continues to support it today. Company COO Vu Bui reiterated this point after Wolvereness filed the takedown.
Wolvereness made 63 commits to net.minecraft.server code over 30 months, so quite obviously he knew what that code was and freely chose to contribute to the project.
The only entity in a position to shut Bukkit down is Mojang, if it feels that the net.minecraft.server source code is an infringement on its rights. But Mojang owns the Bukkit project and supports the continuation of Bukkit.
Context and choice of wording is very important, they are talking about the people and not the project or software. A "project" cannot join a "team" and the choice of the word "team" implies people, not software. Nowhere does it state that "Mojang owns the rights to the Bukkit project and software". If you find one, please do let me know and I will redact that myself.
Yes, they do. But they do not own the contributions to the code themselves. That's not the way software licenses work. Not the GPL license anyway. This would have been the case had Bukkit has a CLA (these aren't usually needed, Mozilla for example doesn't use one) but since it didn't the GPL license being violated returned all rights to the authors themselves and can be re-licensed.
You could write one from scratch in a clean room-style deal but you could not reuse Wolv's code without his permission to do so. He has full rights to the code he wrote.
You did mention more "properties" of that relation, e.g. about a statement by Mojang mentioned in the text of that DMCA notice - it looks like a copy and paste from an answer to a general request for the general case. But you have to consider that the relation between Mojang and Bukkit has been more special than just "bought them at some point" and there have been statements on that relation and about Mods in general from side of Mojang, also consider that the original source code is not the same as the result of a decompilation. This mixing up general cases with actual relationships, might break a couple of reasonings at times, at least that's fishy.
Like a gazelle - unbelievable! I find it hard to find stuff on it by supposedly specialized people, e.g.:
I'd say 0.375% : 0.25% so far.
It has to appear to be slightly incomplete, because you present a distorted view of the relation between Mojang and Bukkit (which already seems to have been slightly distorted, though), e.g. you implicitly claim they have had no special relationship concerning allowance with referencing what is posted in the DMCA, while there has been official statements from side of Mojang about Bukkit in particular and modding in general, that does not seem to match up. Is decompiled-something the original Mojang source code? Is it necessary to regard that at all, given that Mojang allows Bukkit to exist? Is this really about GPL, or will it end up "fart: LPGL", or will it end up "lol: you can instead distribute CB and Bukkit API seperately and it's all fine" or "rofl: they want it dead and won't move at all"...
I'm sure that if the last point does not apply, that they will not put idiots in charge of a counter notice.
Wolvereness only had the right to contribute changes to CraftBukkit under the software's license. If there was no valid license -- your contention and his, yet to be proven -- he can't do anything with the code either.
My contention is that the inclusion of net.minecraft.server code in Bukkit has been permitted and supported by Mojang, so there's no licensing issue. If Mojang or any other entity challenges a DMCA takedown from Wolvereness, I don't see how he could win a lawsuit if he chooses to file one.
Separate names with a comma.