Mojang and the Bukkit Project

Discussion in 'Community News and Announcements' started by vubui, Sep 5, 2014.

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    Thank you for taking my sarcasm as intended and for a great addition to the discussion.

    I know this is a huge deal for Bukkit contributors and those that run servers that use CraftBukkit. However I hope everyone will remember that the PC/Mac/Linux Minecraft world and especially the subset of that world that uses Bukkit, is now a small minority of the people who play and love Minecraft. Mojang has to look to the future of Minecraft for ALL of it's customers and the way that non-official mods systems like Bukkit interact with the official game will not work in the new larger world.
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    I doubt that Bukkit had a good source of revenue considering expenses of hosting the website and domain names. I'm perhaps they have some sort of signing bonus and Mojang could be paying quite a bit.
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    Domain names - yearly expense, less than 100-200?
    Website- Curse?

    Donation button on front page with 1,000s of people to see it daily? - money....
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    You are 100% correct, I am an outsider here.

    I still disagree as I really think most game companies would have lawyer-ed them out of existence. Distributing someone else's server software without permission usually comes with legal consequences.
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    EASY solution: Open-source the minecraft_server.jar and licence it under a compatible license. Problem solved.

    What you have to remember is that the Craftbukkit server software and Bukkit plugins have created a lot of new, fun content for Minecraft, which have helped to sell more copies of Minecraft.

    Vanilla Minecraft is 100% garbage. It's all the independent developers creating exciting new content that makes this game great.

    Dude, you've already made a ton of money off Minecraft. This game isn't going to last forever, but you can prolong its life by open-sourcing the Official minecraft_server.jar. And if the game stays alive, there will still be ways for you guys to make money off of it (T-shirts, name changes, Realms, ad revenue from youtube videos, etc), but if the game dies, (because of lack of cool servers), then you will NOT be able to "milk this cash-cow" anymore.

    Open-sourcing the minecraft_server.jar is a win-win for everyone (Mojang, the players, the independent developers), and it's a no-brainer. Don't wait too long to decide or this game may just die (like it eventually will... how & when is up to YOU).
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    For what its worth, I haven't run a Bukkit-based server since moving off of 1.2.5. I still supported Bukkit as a good platform for public servers since it has anti-griefing plugins.

    The timeline of the death of Bukkit essentially goes as follows: EvilSeph declared that Bukkit is dead. Mojang responds with "Bukkit is not yours to kill. We don't want Bukkit to die." Wolvereness decides that Bukkit should die and nukes it from orbit. Half the community declares that Bukkit's death is Mojang's fault.

    Realms exists for one reason alone: There is an increasingly limited number of new players to buy the game and they want to continue to make money. Mojang does not want to kill off other servers, and Realms is not a "public server" platform.

    Minecraft will not die because of the death of Bukkit. If any plugin developers cared to do so, many of us would be happy to help transition to another platform such as Forge. It requires updates for every major update to Minecraft, so the abandoned but still working plugins will sadly fade away.
    Weirdaholic and feildmaster like this.
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    Just noticed this part.. Of course they obfuscated their code, no one had their permission to use it. It is standard procedure for easily decompiled languages like java or you may as well give your code away.

    It is because people, like the original Bukkit team, are so willing to distribute code that they have no right to that obfuscation is considered necessary.

    I am amazed you you have the gall to ask them to give their code away and them tell them it is garbage. If it is such garbage why have you not just written your own, better version from scratch?

    You should also note that the Xbox and PS4 version has sold almost four times as many copies as the Java version.There are sure a lot of people enjoying the, as you say, garbage vanilla version.

    (Edit, sorry, misquoted.)

    I agree and would go as far as to say that if the worst case happens and Bukkit is DMCA-ed out of existence you will not even see a blip in the MC sales numbers. Console and PE sales will drowned out any slowdown in sales.
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    That's my personal opinion. However, you have provided strong evidence to the contrary, I'll give you that (good job).

    Just because they bought the game, I wonder how many players continue to play it ?

    In other words, how many PC gamers are still playing it ? VS how many console players are still playing it ?

    I wonder if the Mojang authentication servers could provide an answer to this ?

    Essentially, what I'm trying to say... Is that I think the PC version has more replay value because of mods & plugins. That's my hypothesis anyways. But yeah, my original wording was a little harsh and probably could have been worded better. Thanks!
    someoneB and krisdestruction like this.
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    I believe that the end has finally come for Bukkit and Spigot, and therefor the majority of movies out there. For a while, we may be able to survive via 1.7.10 builds, but these will die eventually due to a lack of new content. Until Mojang comes out with their official Plugin API (if it's even able to be used on things apart from Realms), Minecraft will continue to suffer. If Mojang doesn't ramp up development on the Plugin API, I doubt Minecraft will survive through this period.
    someoneB likes this.
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    Exactly. Mojang is digging themselves a huge hole, with their latest actions, starting with the EULA changes. For some time now it seems they are doing everything to harm the community, which once was the main aspect of Mojang. I wouldn't be suprised if they suddenly disallow monetization of videos with Minecraft gameplay to beat down the community for good. They have a heck of a lot money but somehow they aren't capable to hire more stuff to make the updates faster and much stable than they are? That doesn't make any sense to me when I see such a big company having like 10 people working on the code and taking down bukkit. Why couldn't they just hire bukkit staff like they did with Dinnerbone? Why can't they make a separate office just for bukkit? Why now, when they have not more than a plan of doing a Plugin API. It will take ages for the plugin makers to rewrite their code for the new API and knowing how "easy" it Mojang makes to change stuff (resource packs) most of the plugins will simply die like the whole community will do.
    someoneB, sourcemaker and justcool393 like this.
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    vubui Bukkit is dead. You've officially killed it with your response as cited by the Bukkit team.

    I suggest a few things. Do note they are going to be blunt and not intended to be hostile. First, get over the fact that Bukkit is dead. Finish the Minecraft Plugin API ASAP. That is the only way you will be able to move forward at this point. Because I seriously doubt you will open source NMS.

    Two, talk to a lawyer experienced in copyright cases before posting such garbage. And if you did talk to a lawyer and get that I suggest finding a new lawyer.

    Three, hire someone to do PR correctly. You have failed at it horribly.
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    I really don't understand where all the hate for Mojang is coming from. If Mojang didn't own Bukkit things would be exactly like they are now except Bukkit would have just been cancelled forever with no hope of a 1.8 release. I really can't imagine why anyone would try to take legal action to try to shut down Bukkit. What does he possibly gain from needlessly ruining something that so many people benefit from?
    Donny, Pythros and smbarbour like this.
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    Thank you for that clarification. We Americans tend to shorten words. I'll just reference CB in the future. =)
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    And if it wasn't for the Bukkit team being overworked and exhausted when (Mojang could of helped) then Bukkit also wouldn't have been closed by Evil but more to the point Evil clearly indicated it was the EULA that worried him too, again a problem of Mojang's since they kept pushing this god damn EULA and also they kept owning Bukkit secret.

    Being overworked - Exhausted the entire Bukkit staff.
    Mojang's EULA worried Evil.
    Both of the above made the situation impossible to continue Bukkit.
    That caused Mojang's secret deal to out.
    And that caused the DMCA.

    I'm not sure how people can claim Mojang are the good guys here, maybe for you because you thought you can get a 1.8 CB but you need to look at it from other peoples points of view and have some empathy.
    toothplck1 and justcool393 like this.
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    Yes it's on the front page, but we simply have no idea about the donation rates. I personally haven't donated a single cent to Bukkit (sorry ex-Bukkit staff D: ). To my knowledge as well, it went to EvilSeph, and I doubt Mojang would waste time bullying EvilSeph for pebbles compared to their own riches.

    I agree that any company would have the right to lawyer them out of existance, but I think most other companies would be smart enough not to. The reason is that Bukkit and Mojang co-exist in a symbiotic relationship as complements and have a negative cross elsticity of demand. When 1 goes down, the other gets hurt. For a relationship like that, you want to foster the relationship and pour (a reasonable amount of) resources into helping your complement out.
    Right but it's very clear that most of this is a result/response to Mojang's actions. This was even repeatedly cited by Bukkit staff members in their resignation posts. Additionally, the fact is that everything has been running fine for the past 3 years. Within 1 month of Mojang's changes taking effect, CraftBukkit has collapsed. It is clear that extraneous action (Mojang's decisions) has directly brought us to the state of this situation.
    In the last 24 hours, 15,321 people bought the game according to MC stats. This directly translates to the fact that Mojang has at least 0.414 million dollars a day. If they had the need for more money, there are other more viable developments including finishing the Plugin API, adding more content, or even delivering on the promised support for Bukkit instead of hosting Realms. You and I both don't know Mojang's intents, but from the stated EULA enforcement, secret purchase of Bukkit, development of Plugin API, command block commands, and hiring of Bukkit lead devs, it is not too far fetched to see that Mojang is evil enough to go towards this direction.
    Discussion on SpigotMC regarding migration:

    It is still my personal opinion that Forge is a pain to develop on. Even LexManos says that there should be 2 platforms, one like Forge with direct access to objects and another one that has a better abstraction layer API like Bukkit. So everyone switching to Forge is NOT a good idea. I see Bukkit as the stepping stone to Forge development if you want to go that far.

    Yes I agree they have a right to obfuscate it. No, I don't believe it should have been obfuscated from Bukkit. Their "special relationship" should not have denied both unobfuscated code and obfuscated mappings.
    Willingness to distribute code does not result in needing to obfuscate code. If the licensing issues were addressed and resolved openly by both Bukkit and Mojang, then obfuscation would not be necessary. Yet Mojang failed to communicate to Bukkit these past 2 years.
    I'm sorry, but I have to agree that the vanilla is and would have been garbage without the plugins and mods. If you haven't noticed, Mojang is playing keep-up with content from plugins and mods.
    Only time will tell...

    There is absolutely no hope for a 1.8 CB release with Mojang owning Bukkit (a miracle perhaps), so I'm not sure what you're talking about. In fact, Mojang owning Bukkit has caused even the latest release of CB to be taken down. Most of the Bukkit staff just left because of the Mojang ownership. The state we are in is completely sparked from Mojang's ownership and their recent decisions.

    Just ran into this:

    the four = Bukkit core devs
    server = vanilla minecraft_server.jar (not Bukkit)
    client = vanilla client
    Official support = Development of Realms
    Server modifications = Plugin API/Command Block commands
    Larger servers = Large scale public hosting

    Translation: Mojang will steal the top Bukkit core devs to modify the vanilla minecraft_server.jar and client adding Realms and a new Plugin API so that it will support large scale public hosting to eliminate non-official hosting servers. Perhaps I'm reading into this too deeply :p

    EDIT by Moderator: merged posts, please use the edit button instead of double posting.
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 14, 2016
    justcool393 and Europia79 like this.
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    Mojang could have made the update process a lot easier by providing the Bukkit Team with the source code.

    If Mojang didn't own Bukkit, then development would have continued as long as
    1. There were developers willing to invest time into the project.
    2. Mojang never took legal action against Bukkit.
    In such a situation where Mojang doesn't own Bukkit, I don't see any of the developers having reason to DMCA the project.

    Here's the problem:
    • Mojang secretly owns the Bukkit brand and website
    • Developers contribute to Bukkit (under false pretenses)
    • Said developers unknowingly work for Mojang (for free)
    • Mojang profits off the free labor
    Here's the solution:
    • Open-source NMS under a GPL compatible license
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    Another solution, which would protect everyone's copyrights (both Mojang's and all of the contributors to Bukkit), would be to switch Bukkit and CraftBukkit to a less restrictive open source license, like Apache, MIT, or BSD, but that would require the explicit permission of every contributor to Bukkit.
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    For two years Mojang has been supporting Bukkit and it IS known. This post was made over two years ago. For anyone who didn't know is just plain ignorant. Mojang has been giving resources and time to the Bukkit project with absolutely no profit from it at all. All the people now that feel they have been taken advantage of are not really looking at the big picture. Sure, blame Mojang... they are the easiest most obvious enemy right? The money was obviously sent, the question you should all ask yourselves is where did it go? No one is owning up to it, anywhere. This money seems to have gone into the abyss just where bukkit is heading now.

    Now all the people who have contributed have jumped on the oblivious wagon and decided to drop Bukkit. Why? Because you weren't getting paid? Everyone knew that going into the project. So exactly what is the crime here?
    Someone should look into the financials of Bukkit. Before Mojang, Curse was supporting Bukkit. There was an open link to donate to the Bukkit project. Where did that money go? It didn't go back to Mojang, and it didn't go to all the people who were contributing.

    I am disappointing in all the people resigning. To drop this project you have given some of your own life to just because it appears that corruption is the cause of the chaos. Mojang never got in the way of Bukkit. The takedown was all the idea of a developer that took action which caused all the consumer grief. You all could stay, help Mojang keep Bukkit the way it is, free, open source... etc. But no, now they will be forced to drop everything and basically start over. This is what some people want... really? Its not going to hurt Mojang, at all. They won't have to spend any more money on a free project and they may even start to charge for it.

    AzurusDracon likes this.
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    Minecraft servers without plugins are as boring as watching paint dry. Perhaps when there were no plugins and only the vanilla server, it was cool to play. I love the core of minecraft. My perfect example would be a pork chop: The first pork chop was a pig that some caveman cooked over an open fire. However, these days most people would agree that the chop is better with a side of mashed potatoes, carrots, or vegetables, gravy, a tall glass of milk and perhaps a delightful salad or fine table wine.

    Minecraft is the pork chop... craftbukkit is the salt, pepper, curry, sage, thyme, rosemary, coriander... the milk, the salad, the wine, the gravy, the vegetables !!

    A bland porkchop, Eh ??

    Mojang: Keep your magnificent cut of pork available with all the trimmings. PLEASE.
    justcool393 likes this.
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    You could play with mods, even on a server with friends you can trust, complete with brand new blocks, items, mobs, and sometimes even mechanics that a server-side plugin can't even being to approach. There are several solutions for installing the mods that make it essentially brainless to install.
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    vubui A suggestion maybe would be for Mojang to authorize another server project like Bukkit was but on the terms that it remains closed source with a plugin api for development. It wouldn't take talented people that long to get it up and going and it would offer up a new community and a fresh start from what has effectively lost a lot of the Bukkit community and all of this turmoil will be left with the Bukkit project.
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    You are responding to something completely different than what I was talking about. I don't disagree with your comment at all. Just it's not anywhere near the point I was discussing.
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    Nick Foster

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    I for one have not seen any resources or time coming from Mojang in my time on the Bukkit project.
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    Wait, I have a question, when was it up to only Wolfe to issue a DMCA takedown notice on bukkit & spigot? Bukkit is open source, anyone can contribute to it, so Wolfe doesn't have the rights to takedown the downloads of craftbukkit unless everyone agrees.
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    No, you give a sh*t on the community.
    You earned money with us. We're not your community, we're your customer. That's the big missunderstanding on your side. It's about money and you recognised, that you won't make more money without realms and lawyers.

    Go and fck yourself and your EULA, your "legal" stuff and have your money shower.
    We stopped our minecraft server (4k+ registered in forums) a month anyway. Now you can proceed destroying the rest of the minecraft community.

    Have fun and enjoy your money
    someoneB and Rexel like this.
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    You have that a bit backwards, every contributor could do the same exact thing. It doesn't require all of them.
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    @ nick foster.. Dude canary is 1.6.4.. Gtfo thats so 1999.
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    Oh, alright. :p
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