Discussion in 'Bukkit Discussion' started by logoster, Nov 4, 2012.

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    a lot of people like to use bukkit, but also want to have mods, but forge doesnt work with bukkit 1.3 or 1.4, and i think bukkit should work with forge to make it so that most of the forge code is actually built into bukkit or something like that, that way all everyone has to do is place the mods they want on the server in the mods folder, and boom, they have those mods, as i like to have plugins such as factions and lwc and essnetials, but i cant because forge currenlty does NOT have a bukkit 1.3 or 1.4 port, so to make it so that this gets a lot faster, i say bukkit and forge work together to make it so that we can do what i said above.

    Who's with me?
    agaricus likes this.
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    You've got to be kidding me.

    Forge can do whatever it likes, they can provide mod compatibility or whatever but it's not Bukkit's job to support that. You don't take a car back to the dealership where you got it and demand to have it fixed because you've ripped out the engine and replaced it with a different one... no... Forge can do the updating themselves like everyone else does if that's what they want to do.

    Bukkit's purpose has been and will always be to provide as close to vanilla experience as humanly possible, while giving people an API to expand upon. The amount of work that goes into updating is already on a scale that most people don't understand, and to ask the Bukkit Team to internally support projects which, quite literally, rip out classes from the code and replace them with ambiguous third-party code, which then in turn supports modding, is ridiculous.

    If you want to go ahead and do that, fine with all of us, but everyone here is already working as hard as possible for free so that you have a better multiplayer experience, and so I suggest that you at least show a little respect towards the developers who do this for you, instead of acting like it's an injustice that they don't support complete and utter re-coding of their work.
    Cirno, MyPictures, steaks4uce and 2 others like this.
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    Logo I have an idea...

    Do it yourself.
    chakyl, CevinWa and steaks4uce like this.
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    I'm not complaining/condoning one way or the other here..more seeing if I'm misunderstanding the problem.

    I didn't think the issue was that forge was asking for you the spend more time fixing it so it can work for was a matter of them asking what the new mapping changed bukkit made in reference to the vanilla jar was so they can keep support for plugins and the like, and bukkit not willing to give them up.

    Correct me if I'm wrong here..(I may well be)
    An analogy of how I thought it was was more like:
    You buy a car from the dealership, that you take it in regularly to get maintenance done or add new factory offered options they offer as 'official manufacture parts' if you want to keep your warranty (bukkit plugin support)..
    Then when you ask them "That new ECM chip you put in replacing my old one, can you give me a rundown on whats changed in it for result codes? it seems I cannot poll my cars computer for my mileage anymore for my trip meter I installed on my dash since its looking for a depreciated output code now"
    and the dealership goes
    "Nope...figure it out yourself we did all the work of installing it for you, its your job to reverse engineer any changes it made to your car to support things we didn't install".

    So wasn't a matter of asking the dealership to fix your 3rd party gas mileage gauge themselves..just asking them what they changed on the upgrade, so you can do the work yourself..and them telling you "Cant do that, you need to tear the ECM apart yourself and see what we did, we don't give out that information"
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    @logoster Forge isn't that simple as you say there. The mod needs to be installed on the server and on the client, if not then the server wont allow you to join (forge runs a check if all the needed mods are installed).

    I also agree with @h31ix, such a big change would just cause tons of bugs and break the project in bits. Also the time for update would increase insane (for example watch Tekkit and such). Craftbukkit is opensource so everyone can fork it and make it work with Forge, that shouldn't be a problem to do (Someone already did this for Minecraft 1.2.5 and maybe 1.3 also?).
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    We do nothing to block mods from changing CraftBukkit internals, we just can't support them as we don't know what they actually change. For us to investigate the cause takes our development team away from fixing bugs in CraftBukkit itself.

    If modding groups want to build upon CraftBukkit that is really awesome, we just ask that they take the time to support it. If they end up finding a bug that they can reproduce on a non modded CraftBukkit, we have a bug tracker for that, and will fix it accordingly.
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    just an a question... did you already spoke with them? i mean.. maybe you can find a point where both sides are agree... i read at his forum and i see they only need have a bit cooperate with you in order to know what you changed... anyway, i'm noob and i don't know anything so don't flame me if i said some shitty thing ^^

    i guess bukkit it's better than vanilla... and it's cool (gj guys).. it'a a solution for every type of servers... small/big ecc
    modded is another game from bukkit but it's cool and let player have another exeprience
    modded+bukkit=there are no words... could be the best for everyone who needs it XD
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    mbaxter ʇıʞʞnq ɐ sɐɥ ı

    There isn't anything for us to talk to them about. We are going to continue making Bukkit the best we can. If they want to modify it, that's their right but we're not going to do the work for them. We aren't blocking them from doing anything :)
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    Wolvereness Bukkit Team Member

    Well, I'd like to clarify this analogy.

    There is Bukkit, and then there is CraftBukkit. Bukkit is an API, CraftBukkit is a minecraft server mod to support the Bukkit API. CraftBukkit changes without notice, from mappings to internal implementations. This will not change, and we will never support directly hooking into net.minecraft.server (NMS) or org.bukkit.craftbukkit (OBC). Very regularly when updates come, we get hundreds of reports of problems from servers that run (bad) plugins that compile against OBC or NMS. Thing is, we need NMS and OBC to be as versatile as possible because we do not control the vanilla jar that we are modding. When vanilla gets refactored, we have to redesign OBC to still fit the API. The API on the other hand is a set of specifications. We maintain those specifications, as could anyone else. Maintaining those specifications, is as I just said, part of what makes NMS and OBC deprecated and volatile.

    Forge refuses to work with the same limitations that we have; they want more. They want us to bend over backwards to support both OBC and NMS changes.
    Why don't they look at this a different way? They don't need to use our OBC or NMS; they could just implement the Bukkit API over their own internals. Replacing our implementation, expecting us to bend over backwards, is never going to work. As it is, they are attempting to put forth a fraction of our effort in getting things working, with the rest falling on our shoulders.

    There's nothing that we use that they do not have and are unable to obtain easily.
    afistofirony and Milkywayz like this.
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    The way I see it is that Bukkit is losing people because your not working with forge and their mods. Popular people like the Yogscast and such are doing Tekkit, (forge) and now tens of thousands of people want to run a nice, clean, public server without problems. If bukkit isn`t helping out forge, then obviously they cant use you anymore. Which then you lose tens of thousands of people leave bukkit and no longer rely on you guys. Eventually, if things keep up like this, forge will make it so mods can be made that act like, or even better than a bukkit plugin. If that DOES happen, people would just switch over to forge and use their mods, and then bukkit will rarely be used.

    Hope you take this into consideration.
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    False... source please?

    Forge isn't Bukkit's project, it's an individual group of people who decided to make it, we have absolutely ZERO - NOTHING - to do with it at all; it wasn't our idea, it's not our code, it has no affiliation. Now, please explain in that situation why it is our duty to code it for them? Because that's all "helping" means - to make it FOR them because Bukkit does nothing to deter people from making mods and such, it provides the means to do so, so we're helping them as much as humanly possible without actually taking over the project for them?

    Again, I'd like the source from which this hypothesis is based. Until any kind of evidence is given I'm just going to write this off as completely silly and false in every way imaginable. Please actually have some kind of background or experience in coding stuff like Bukkit if you're going to make ridiculous accusations; you clearly don't know how any of this works.
    chakyl, Milkywayz and np98765 like this.
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    You're being absolutely ridiculous, to the point where I can't tell if you're just trolling the staff or you are trying to make an invalid point true. Please, before you say something like "bukkit is losing people", provide sources, because that obviously isn't happening.
    Besides, it's would be 100% more difficult to merge Forge and Bukkit. It's pretty much impossible, or just puts Bukkit on a long hiatus, because you would need to rewrite the entire source to go hand in hand. Forge would also be easy to exploit, forcing users to install fake mods that could potentially steal your .lastlogin file, delete system32 (It is entirely possible), or just plainly just screw up Minecraft.
    chakyl and Milkywayz like this.
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    well actually this is what i was trying to say, im just horrible at explaining, and as for doing it myself, i fail at just installing mods on my client, hence why im using mod packs such as ftb, and you think id be able to make forge work with bukkit, well, mabey if your waiting to wait for about 90 trillion years, then i guess, but otherwise, yeah, umm, not going to happen, lol, otherwise i gladly would, but what i was trying to say in the OP was what dxwarlock said, and it doesnt seem like it would be that hard to keep forge in the loop of all the things that bukkit changes in the server code, so that forge can try to get forge to work well with bukkit, without actually having to port it kind of thing, as first of all, there'd probably be a lot more bukkit user's as a lot of people need some of the plugins, such as authme reloaded, and xauth, and essentials, and some other stuff that makes it easier to manage the server and prevent players from being griefed
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    Honestly, Forge already does everything that Mojang wants in a modding API. If you want any real change to be implemented, I'd suggest turning your complaints away from the people who make your life easier for free (and on their own time) and go to the company you paid money to (I hope) and ask them to use Forge or something like Forge as their modding API.
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    Well, there is no data. That in itself is a problem. I understand that some of the other posts are insensitive in the sense that they may come off as self entitled. But they are raising legitimate concerns considering the lack of data bukkit has. Here is our rationale.

    This is the only data we have of bukkit servers. The problem with this is that it that doesn't show bukkit/forge supported servers. A few key developers did not move up to newer versions after 1.2.5 because they were waiting for the new API. We can assume that servers that are 1.2.5 and down would be modded servers. MCPC’s last version was 1.4.2 and bukkit is still working on their debugging as well which explains why there is still a high number of users who haven’t updated to the latest. Redpower2(a mod stuck in 1.2.5) is one of the standards of modding world. I do not think it is going too far to say that this data will change significantly when Redpower2’s update is released. Also, one could very well argue that anything 1.4.2 and down is a heavily modded server because they have no reason not to update which increases the likely hood they are running forge. That data is rather ambiguous and I’m not opposed to any counter arguments there. But the interesting number in all of this is the 1.2.5 users. They make up 12.9% which is a hugely significant statistic. Why don’t they update and can bukkit really afford not to know? This data would be better if CPW is able to have an API made for bukkit plug-in support forge. What would make this data even better is if forged powered servers have their own value.

    All this aside, it is impossible to say what modded players are going to do. These concerns are not rooted in self-entitlement but reflect the concerns of a large population.
    MCPC says, they cannot continue their direction because they cannot work with bukkits code as it stands.

    Bukkit says, we want modders to support bukkit and we cannot spend time supporting modders because our goal is vanilla experience.
    So are you, bukkit, sure that the data you have is accurately enough to make the decision to forgo the support of modded servers because currently, we can only go on the assumptions inferred from version numbers. How is bukkit so sure they have accurate data without any way of knowing how many servers are modded? Furthermore, can they afford not to have this data? Are you really so certain that a blind eye is really how you should be handling this?
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    Where was that said?
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    You make Bukkit sound like a business. As far as I can see, Bukkit can "afford" not to.

    Where did you hear this?
    EDIT: h31ix beat me. :3
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    Perhaps afford was a poor word choice. Clearly bukkit is not going any where. He does have a point though. Why are your attitudes so passive about this other than you feel you shouldn't have to?
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    What he's saying is that's a better alternative to us supporting mods, which we don't have the manpower to do. Mods that are created are not our projects. We do our part in making Bukkit an open system so that people can mod it, but it's not like that makes us responsible for the changes they make. That's just silly.

    I'll use another analogy. Do you think Linus Torvalds (the creator and guy-in-charge of Linux) will listen to you if you try and report a bug to him that's present in Linux Mint only, a distribution of Linux, and tell him he needs to fix it? No... no not at all. Mint is a distribution of Ubuntu, which is a distribution of Debian, which is a distribution of Linux. Downstream modifications made to the code are not the responsibility of the original creators of the upstream code. That's just how it works. That's not to say that what's born might be super awesome, but to attempt to reason with the original developers about how that new project is now their responsibility to maintain is just plain stupid.

    Do you think if you crack open your dell computer and replace all the parts with different ones that make the computer function differently dell will give you support? No! You've made changes and it is not their responsibility to deal with them. You personally may know how to service your computer with it's new components, but to call customer support and demand to know why it's not working and blame it on dell because you changed everything about the product is ridiculous.

    Do I need to continue? What people MODIFY is purely their own decision, and if Bukkit were to try and fix every mod on the face of the planet there would be no more Bukkit. Even supporting one would take time away from the unpaid volunteers who are doing this for you, and make everything 10x slower, that's a rather selfish attitude.
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    That concept is understood on my end. But Minecraft is unique because of the amount community driven development. Bukkit exists because they needed something. It seems that the "we don't support them" attitude is a defensive policy due to skewed perceptions of the community. Granted, the community doesn't always understand what is involved. And reasons like "we just don't" will not be good enough. The more divisions in devlopers will only lead to more people looking for consilience. Thats the reality.

    One thing, I think, getting lost here. Forge is a community of modders and not just one or two mods. Has there been any communication between you and them?

    I can see your fraying and have begun to attack your community by calling us selfish. So I won't respond further. If I may though. You did sign up for this.
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    Figured i'd drop in and clear a few things up.
    We arn't asking you to support us, to write any code for us, to give support for modified servers, or anything like this.
    We want to support bukkit because it is a nice api that is really powerful and many people use it to great effect.
    But the massive amounts of repetitive work that is needed to be done every update just to support bukkit is not worth it.
    What we ARE asking is that you put forth a insignificant amount of effort to make our jobs a thousand times easier.
    What would be of great use to us, and save countless hours of work, would be if you guys made available your vanilla to craftbukkit mappings.

    If someone of power on your end was willing to sit down with cpw and discuss things you'd find that your understanding of the situation is completely off. The amount of work we are asking you to do is minimal.

    So, people, right now it seems that the official ForgeBukkit project is dead, and it's up to someone else in the community to take up the task. That is unless we can get those mappings.
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    Wolvereness Bukkit Team Member

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    Except the mappings are not easy to obtain.
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    Wolvereness Bukkit Team Member

    Actually, they are trivially easy to obtain. It just takes a little bytecode knowledge (as in, a library) and a few hours (once, because it can be automated after initial script written) to write out what format you need said mappings in.
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    Trivial for you because you already have the information, pain in the ass for us. Which is the entire point here.
    As for what format we would like it in, any format you give us would be great, however if you want to be nice, RetroGuard format would be nice. (sample).
    Without your mappings, it's hours of trial and error trying to sync up bukkit to vanilla names.
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    Wolvereness Bukkit Team Member

    It's not trivial because I have the information, it's trivial because it's absolutely trivial to figure out mappings when you have two identical jars, one of which with things renamed.
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    But that's the problem, we we have the CraftBukkit jar which is highly modified, and we have vanilla.
    If we had the pre-decompiled version of mc-dev it would be easier yes. As the decompiled version isn't in a compileable state.
    Or, you know, you could just give us the retroguard config you guys use to make mc-dev.
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    Its often days of effort for our team to update the vanilla server to CraftBukkit. I do not see why you cannot put in hours on your end to provide the same thing to your users, as we provide with our mod (CraftBukkit) to our community.

    I am sorry, but the fact that you need to put in some hard work doesn't sway me. If you do not want to put in that time and let ForgeBukkit fall by the wayside then it is on you, not the Bukkit team.

    Again, why is it our fault you need to put in a little effort?
    drtshock likes this.
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    The design of CraftBukkits update system can be improved to save the team tons of time. But that's a different discussion.

    It's not the work that's the issue, it's the repetitive unneeded work that could be avoided if you guys gave the littlest effort on your end. It is not worth it to us to spend hundreds of hours every update just to get your code working so that we can spend the time needed to get ours working with it.

    I have not said it is your fault for anything, we and not requiring you to do anything. We are simply asking. If we don't get it then it's the community that suffers not us. I don't care two bits about bukkit server as I rarely play on anything besides a close nit server.

    You guys keep saying that its US who arnt putting in 'a little effort', our 'little effort' would be dozens of hours of work every update. Your 'little effort' would be a simple copy/paste.
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