Dear Wesley Wolfe...

Discussion in 'Bukkit Discussion' started by Creepy_McCreepster, Nov 17, 2014.

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    It simply means you assert that you either hold the copyright yourself, or have been authorized to act for a party that does. Basically it is to prevent a third party from issuing a request without the rights holder's explicit authorization. This is largely to prevent it from being abused as a form of censorship and to prevent a rights holder from attempting to insulate themselves from the enforcement action (eg: a counter-suit).

    Really the concept of ownership is a rather vague status when to comes to the collective whole that is the Bukkit project and it's not clear what, if any, rights that would actually constitute. The only thing that is clear, based on public knowledge, is that there was no CLA and thus each contributer holds the copyrights to their contributions (except possibly those hired by Mojang /may/ have transferred those to Mojang or another entity).
    asofold likes this.
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    I'm actually not quite sure what you are trying to say
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    My point got a bit muddle there, but I was trying to direct away from the potential implication that he was acting on Mojang's behalf.
  4. Maybe Sponge + Pour? Maybe Glowstone will get a boost now? Maybe TridentSDK? I'm not sure, I don't follow the alternatives progress that closely.

    This isn't CraftBukkit - Spigot is a fork of CraftBukkit, so when I say "Bukkit" I mean only the official releases from the Bukkit team.

  5. I'd say so :), of course it's interesting concerning "history of things". Some scenario might change some peoples view on things, but those don't seem very probable. In fact you could discuss a lot about possible reasons, but it doesn't seem probable to get any "real" answers any time soon.

    Well there is some fog about what/how they were updating. Of course the Spigot project is not the Bukkit project. Still trying to make people belive that Bukkit plugins have no future, has no base (yet), it's just too early to claim so. However if the Spigot team turn out to "rescue" the CraftBukkit+Bukkit code base, even with alterations to some original concepts, they might well get called "the new Bukkit", e.g. by server owners and plugin developers, just because they make it possible to run Bukkit plugins on MC 1.8. What's "Bukkit" for you, depends on you personal view on things, and is not binding for others. Again, i don't want to imply that Spigot is Bukkit, nor that they would be the official successors. But once it's clear that the Bukkit project doesn't continue to develop the old code base, or if it takes too long until re-starting to do so, there will be other projects using at least the old Bukkit API code base, so they'll have the priviledge to discuss who "the new Bukkit" is, if they'll diverge or unite, concerning efforts to develop the API further.
    While opinions about what "Bukkit" is and will be have to be respected, it would be wrong to try to make people believe, that Bukkit plugins won't run on servers that implement the Bukkit API (be it forks/extensions/alterations of it). To make a judgement on when something might be ready, or if it won't happen at all, you'll need to watch other projects (and the Bukkit project itself).
  6. asofold Bukkit is and always has been what's released by the official Bukkit team. One problem with Spigot "rescuing" Bukkit is that the teams have too contradicting ideas - Bukkit picked stability over speed, Spigot speed over stability. Spigot may take over as the most popular choice, but it will never be Bukkit. It will be Spigot.

    FYI, I never said Bukkit plugins have no future.
  7. Good that you clarify on your intentions. I am well aware of a lot of differences between the Spigot and Bukkit projects. I have been switching to and fro over time, for differing reasons, but currently i am using that one which allows per-world view-distance settings. The Bukkit project has had a strong focus on quality and stability, but given they couldn't manage to implement many very basic Minecraft features in time, in addition to not-ever-present recommended builds, as well as ending the thing having burnt out, you could argue that their approach is not 100% imperative for the future, despite all virtues. I don't want to turn this into a debate about that, but "too contradicting" will not be what server owners and plugin developers might adopt for their opinion. No matter if there will be a "best continuation" or a new Bukkit project lead with a slightly different focus, it certainly won't be the "same thing".

    Let me re-state: You can not really declare what others should have in mind when they are using the word "Bukkit". For many it's not such a fixed thing, they might usually refer to it as "something that runs Bukkit plugins", or they might on occasion refer to it as "the Bukkit project". If i speak of server jars, i wouldn't say "Bukkit" for anything else than the official releases from the Bukkit project, but that changes when treating some other contexts. We should not turn this into a "fundamentalist" debate, i just want to clarify that implying that plugins and servers using Bukkit would be dead concerning MC 1.8 would be misleading. Edit: Nothing against clarification on what people mean with using "Bukkit", but what they are actually asking for also needs clarification in such cases.
    Krustymk likes this.
  8. asofold It's not misleading to use the accurate term to describe the situation. I've no idea how to cater towards everybody's misconceptions in order to make it so it isn't "misleading". Bukkit = found on this site. Fact. Everything else is a fork of Bukkit at best.

    EvilSeph has said that the only reason there was no 1.7 RB was because of issues on Mojang's side.
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    asofold Fork taking a devbuild, appling untested changes to it then branding it as "Recommended" doesnt make it so.
  11. Sorry, but that looks like your agenda.
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    asofold My agenda? No, its facts and basic logic.
    Its the difference of Bukkit actually branding builds as "Recommended" "Beta" and "Dev" and fork calling it all "Recommended".
  13. That's slightly misleading as well, it might even be wrong, because other projects can test stuff and also they can iron out bugs on their own and then deem it recommended on their account, all to their own responsability. Ok, they apply other criteria and maybe they take more risks - but the effective difference to what the Bukit project was releasing isn't that huge, given that people were using development builds all the time and that even beta builds and sometimes recommended builds had severe issues, up to crashing and duplication bugs - the idea of recommended builds providing that quality seems not to work out at all, given how the Minecraft releases need updates on a regular basis. That's what i meant with "not 100% imperative" - i am not claiming that other projects approaches must be that much better, but i don't see how they can be turned down by such logic, given what i have observed.
    Sorry for the agenda comment, it's misleading too.
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    asofold I don't see how said bug testing can be done when the process is take a new bukkit devbuild, apply fork changes to it, then upload as "Recommended". In an automated process.

    Also, blaming bukkit for unfixable MC issues is not really something that is useful or even relevant.

    It doesn't look like you actually know the fork you are defending so much.
  15. Do you have any intention to provide proof for your claims? Are you refering to some past accident? I don't think you can be serious about another project releasing a CraftBukkit development build as "recommended" with an automatted process by intention.
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    asofold no, not a past incident. The entire process.
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    That's not different from the fact that nobody except Mojang can legally decompile and use the minecraft server, either. The point is to control who has legal standing to sue over it. Craftbukkit is never going to be 100% legal as long as it contains NMS code, but it may be possible to make it so that Mojang are the only ones who can sue over it, not Wolvereness.

    I think for most people, a working implementation of the Bukkit API is all they care about. Whether or not it's a fork, or which set of "official" open source developers it's done by, is probably irrelevant to everyone but the purists.

    EDIT by Timtower: Merged double posts
  18. Not always the case, you can also work around some issues, and some issues were just fixed by other projects simply, much later by CraftBukikt - sometimes "unfixable" depends on the approach to sta as close to vanilla as possible, which falls under "not 100% imperative". I have no intention to blame the CraftBukkit developers for anything they have done or have not done. Regarding the results of standards and paradigms in use, including the "end" of the project, it seems clear to me, that the standards and paradigms have not been 100% imperative.

    That's not true. They have a totally different approach.

    You shouldn't complain about me "defending them", if you make such wildcard-statements about their process. To be fair, it looked like they did not aim at the totally unxperienced server owner. Their project also contains changes that diverge of the vanilla behavior, so that's a different thing, but the "branding as recommended" doesn't work out, the last "recommended" build of them is at 1.4.7 if i read right - their approach on builds is different. If you want to argue towards Spigot not being a good follow up, you could try to scare off inexperienced server owners, claiming that they take more risks and have a more complex configuration and have more changes to vanilla. But i prefer to see the positive in it, as long as the transition is not "plugins dead now", their project can still develop further and "mature".
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    You mean you do not have the ability to head to their github and see for yourself? Ok.

    Nah. "It is just a modification of CraftBukkit, just made more efficient." Off the about page. Clearly not aiming at everyone. And obviously the advertising by others on FBO included anything but "This fork is better".

    Considering every build is being branded as stable on its own download page (Which i assume you havent take a look at either, like when i asked you to take a look at DBO to see approval times, which you again tried to argue that i lied about) I dont think i can believe you, sorry.

    No. I want them to work for their own and not have any and all statements coming from their project being "We are better! We are the special sauce! Join us!", and not to attempt to release their own made builds as "CraftBukkit".

    You keep talking about how "bukkit means different things to different people" and how "some people may regard it as successor and new bukkit". Its getting somewhat annoying, you know? When someone asks "Will there be Craftbukkit 1.8?" or "Is bukkit dead?" They do not mean "Another project which doesnt have a downloadable build yet wants to become the successor to Bukkit". Thats what all the sponge discussion is for. they ask about the ACTUAL bukkit project, and its workings. Keep the two things separated and stop mixing 'alternatives' into the discussion. This is, once again, the bukkit forums. For the Bukkit/Craftbukkit project. Your project has its own forums.
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    He doesn't have the legal rights to the entire project. The legal premise of his DMCA takedown is untested in court. It is just the viewpoint of one Bukkit contributor out of over 100 contributors.

    Mojang can file a DMCA counter-notice at any time. If it does, Wolvereness will have 21 days to file a lawsuit against Mojang. If he doesn't, Bukkit and CraftBukkit will be back online.

    He is a member of a community. He joined Bukkit a year after it began and made contributions to the code of other people. Now those people can't access their code on GitHub, make new improvements and distribute those improvements through Bukkit.Org. I think that alone should compel him to explain and justify his actions.

    A lot of the code he contributed is the same code he claims is a legal infringement of his rights. He made 63 commits to net.minecraft.server code in CraftBukkit over the course of 30 months.

    Do you see the quandary in adding code to an open source project that's already in progress and then using the code you added to kill the entire project for everyone?

    EDIT by Timtower: Merged triple post, please use the edit button instead.
  21. Not ok. For the users the Jenkins is what counts. What labels they use in their GitHub is totally unrelated, as they always merge the upstream content. Do you find any recommended builds there?
    The intention of forks usually is to provide something "better" aspect-wise. I don't intend to discuss the maturity of either parties actions concerning advertising and criticism. I mostly recall the "the performance sayvvy something CRaftBukkit mod" headline, which isn't wrong, given the changes and configurability they add (at the cost of other things, but that's no news).
    I can't find that on their jenkins, sorry. I have not seend those badges. I don't see your point proven. Care to give a link?
    I understand that there are reasons to not like "them", but they don't release their own-made builds as CraftBukkit. Now with 1.8 they update and recode parts of CraftBukkit internally, whatever name they will release it under. Their advertisements are of course biased towards their own project, commented above.
    Sorry, but not all people are asking for "is the old Bukkit staff good, will the official project be continued?", often the title is "will there be Bukkit..." but in the text they ask if they can continue their server or can still use the plugins. If you read my posts and see how i react to which thread, you will see that i am repsonding to those. On the contrary, answering "Bukkit is dead" to the question "when can i run my plugins on 1.8" is misleading and could even be seen as an attempt to kill more of the whole thing than is yours to kill.
    pookeythekid likes this.
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    You Questioned me about the proof to the fork updating process. You can see it in github. I dont think it can get clearer.

    You are on the right place. Scroll down..........

    No, they just claim to have been preparing for "Craftbukkit 1.8 release". On the announcement page, no less!
    "Is Bukkit dead?"
    "No, a fork is clearly alive!"
    "Is Bukkit going to continue?"
    "There are other projects doing this!"
    Yet another discussion clearly about bukkit, yet again pushing forks into discussion.

    You blame me for 'agenda' yet clearly you have an agenda of your own. To promote the fork you keep mentioning and praising.

    In every thread discussing Bukkit, you bring your fork. Yes, we realize how much you love and praise your fork, but, my god, do you have literally zero respect for the ones who made this project come to life?

    Im god damn tired with arguing with you. Dont bother replying to this post. Im done. You got what you want, no? A dead bukkit, a live spigot, and all the community you could ever hope for to get more 'donations' off! Who cares for measly things like legal issues (Yes, i can see the DMCA violation hosted on spigotMC, dont even try to argue this) But no, you dont stop at this. While the project is at the ground, treat it as an advertising platform! Theres no other better place than it, no? And who else profits? Curse and Mojang, of course, when their unwitting pawn called bukkit team refused to work anymore for free for them, a fork comes up! Such a coincidence, isnt it?

    I give up. Im so damn tired. Its been 3 years. All for nothing. Ran up clashing with so many people, SK, MD, mojang, curse, etc, etc, etc... only thing left to hope for is to support evilseph after all of this shitstorm, but no, take the project and sell it to the highest bidder, go ahead. Why support a project that went dead already? Its pointless. All pointless.
  23. That should be irrelevant. What counts is what the builds on jenkins show, for comparing to recommended builds of CraftBukkit and for what you claim "they are promoting as XYZ". If you refer to a part of their build-process having some badge inside, while it doesn't appear in the build list on their Jenkins, i can only hope that you are not trying to mislead people to belive the Spigot project would promote CB dev builds as their own recommended ones, such is not worth considering.
    They updated the code base, it's what they have been doing. On informal terms it's correct-ish, but i understand if you don't like it.
    Sorry for citing:
    I answered "For sure there are people working on other projects, providing compatibility to Bukkit plugins in one or another way, though some plugins might need to adapt to either projects specialties." towards "Is Bukkit going to continue with its developments? I would appreciate if Bukkit continues with their devs.". You might consider that being too far fetched within your own calculus, however it'll be more clear that it makes sense to post such after an answer like "Short answer, no.", which happened there. My answer even had been crafted in a careful and general way, not promoting a specific mod. If it wasn't for others trying to write "appreciate continuation" dead, i wouldn't bother not to answer.
    There i also stated quite general things, mainly as an answer to AdamQpzm, who's well able to respond to me. Note that the creator of that thread is a plugin developer.
    It's not my intention to promote Spigot, despite them looking like a "most-realistic" alternative to continue using Bukkit plugins. De facto i already changed to staying more general concerning "suggesting to wait for other mods implementing Bukkit", but it seems that some people want to kill the code - that won't happen.
    It's not my fork, but it seems that some people want to kill the code and plugin-ecosystem, while some people (not necessarily the same) seem to not miss any opportunity to state "no more Bukkit", even when the question was about plugins, then again there are continued complaints about others mentioning alternatives, including alternatives to keep using Bukkit plugins. I'd like to reach an armistice, but it'd be difficult if you see the possibility to have Bukkit API and server implementation being re-used as an attack and if you see my posts with such a bias. I don't mind being corrected, but you are trying to imply things that go too far off both my intention and actual facts, so i can't possibly follow there.
    It appears to me that you are not really arguing, but there are some things that you don't like/want.
    I don't see how "end it now" can be "ok" and "there is alternatives" can be "three years for nothing", this was an open source project and your own team lead was to find a direction to get through all those things (not claiming they have to, but that's what a team lead usually does). I do see a big mistake in trying to try to make people believe that it all ends here and that the whole thing only consists of the official staff and developers, though they'd have deserved more appreciation and a better run and ending (and maybe continuation) than what has happened so far. It's been "them vs. us" all over with differing "thems" on too many occasions, without much of backup. Rightfully asking for more respect, but unrightfully trying to claim "that's it" plus adding accusations, that's not how you end a community. Your asking for clarification of things is perfectly valid, but you can't mix it with such a view well.
    Now that this tends to get out of hand i'll keep it much shorter from now on, even if i am asked directly, probably i should open a thread and link it for such part of a discussion.
    pookeythekid and Krustymk like this.
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    Now that you mention it (and now that it's refreshed in my mind)... eh, it is pretty weird that he contributed to what he claims is infringing. But then, I've read a bunch about how the decompiled server code was modified so that it wasn't 100% Mojang's code, and with the adding of Wolvereness' (and I'm guessing most likely others') code it's made much less all Mojang's code. But then, that would leave no kind of Mojang-CB conflict... Anyway, I do know one thing: Wolvereness definitely owns the rights to the CraftBukkit (not modified MinecraftServer) code that he contributed, and that's where I give my support. Btw, feel free to enlighten me on the decompiled code.

    Never seen such a great debate on this topic before this, I enjoyed reading it.
  25. No breaking into people, please :).
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    If Mojang felt that the net.minecraft.server code was illegal, changes to that code would not make it less illegal since it was derived from the original work of Mojang.

    But Mojang has gone on record as saying it does not object to net.minecraft.server code. So this issue is moot.

    The only right Wolvereness had to contribute code to Bukkit and CraftBukkit was under the project's open source licenses (GPL for Bukkit, LGPL for CraftBukkit). So he owns his contributions, but he has locked those contributions into the terms of an open source license and has only limited rights to change that arrangement.

    He contends he has the right to insist his code be removed. I think that's an open question until/unless it is tested in court.
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    asofold Right, should have thought twice before posting that. Edited it out.

    rcade Perhaps. But when all else fails, Wolvereness is still asking for the license terms to be met before CB continues distributing. I think that's a valid request for anyone to ask, contributor or not.
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    Would it be a lot of code? I've read countless areas that claim he only contributed 68 lines of code.

    Agree to disagree. When you suddenly change your 'mind' on something, and that's the best thing to call this, for reasons that are not necessarily public that affect quite literally 2/3 the entire server community, yeah, I think an explanation and apology just might be necessary. At this point, while we are all stuck on 1.7.9/1.7.10 thanks to him, yeah, I really don't even care why he suddenly decided to grow a conscious. It didn't bother him before, and don't give me that crap "he didn't know Mojang owned the project". It was announced here 2 1/2 years ago, it's on wiki's, it was public knowledge. Period. He had other incentives, and that's exactly why he chose when he did. And for the record I mean no offense to him as a person, I'm sure he has his reasons, and can't discuss, or won't, whatever, but in his 'selfish' action he single handedly took down and ruined the ENTIRE custom server community. I think that deserves an apology, REGARDLESS of his reasoning.

    EDIT by Moderator: merged posts, please use the edit button instead of double posting.
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 13, 2016
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    If you expand your world beyond CraftBukkit, you'd be pleased to see that there are other things besides it. Spigot, Trident, Sponge, Glowstone, Rainbow, Arrow, and I'm quite sure there are a ton more. Not to be biased or anything, but I believe Spigot is the most promising alternative so far, as far as a 1.8 build. But I'd suggest giving it more time, wait for the program with the most dominance in both API and server software.
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    Really. Which one of those which you listed is 'fully' operational and up to speed like Craftbukkit? Yes, I'll full-heartedly agree there are A LOT of projects now burning at full speed. Sadly, none of them are functional beyond impressive alpha, not counting Sponge necessarily, as it relies on Forge, which like Spigot, is supposed to be releasing a 1.8 any day now, if rumors are to be believed. Those are great for tinkering, testing, fun, but not for people looking to replace a fully functional and running Bukkit Server. It's got nothing to do with expanding my world, they aren't operational. I got all giddy about glowstone, in fact, cuz I read that some folk were running to it. And yes, it works with 1.8, (same hack way Spigot does, I think), and no, it contains nothing of 1.8 code. Can't even craft 1.7 items properly (as of my last try). Again, sure, down the road they may be contenders, but they aren't yet, not even close.

    Edit: I wanted to add, for those following along, that Spigot does have an excellent post talking about the top 50 (yes, 50) projects out looking to replace bukkit and/or be something else in the offerings that seems to get updated frequently and was quite useful. As I said though, there is nothing yet. I won't link it but googling similar words will take you right to it (not sure if it's appropriate to link to another project from here)
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