Bukkit visits Mojang!

Discussion in 'Bukkit News' started by EvilSeph, Dec 21, 2011.

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    We got to visit Mojang in Sweden!

    For those of you who want to hear what we did in Sweden, read on. For those of you who just want to know what this means for Bukkit and Minecraft, skip to the end.

    This past weekend Bukkit went on a trip to visit Mojang in Stockholm, Sweden and we had a blast. Dinnerbone and myself arrived pretty late in Sweden so we were almost certain no one would be at the Mojang HQ, but to our surprise the place was packed with employees hard at work getting their new game, Cobalt, out instead of tearing each other apart in their usual Friday game nights. Tahg had the earliest flight out of the four of us, so he got to spend the whole day with Mojang and got to share a juicy steak with them in between the craziness accompanying a game launch.

    It was really exhilarating being a part of Cobalt's launch and actually physically being there as it happened - the energy coming from the team pushing to get Cobalt out was electric and contagious. After we got a tour of Mojang's (pretty awesome) office, we spent the rest of the day hanging out with beers and soda in hand just getting to know the Mojang team and watching them scramble about getting Cobalt ready for release. Funnily enough, while this was all happening, our phones were alight with messages and/or tweets from people asking us when Cobalt would be out - it was all so surreal - but, of course, we couldn't answer those questions even if we did know.

    Eventually Carl decided it was time for a break and got us all pizza for dinner (I found it pretty cool that we each got our own pizzas, it was very different from Canada where you either get slices or a large pizza to share), with Carl getting his favourite pizza aptly named 'The Internet' as it had everything thrown on it. Beer and pizza turned out to be all the fuel the team needed to push Cobalt out there for public consumption, as immediately after dinner everything was ready for launch and people could finally take a breather. Unfortunately, the insanity continued: the hard work from everyone was simply replaced with all of us sat in front of the screen watching the Cobalt sales counter go up until late into the night. Sadly, Grum's flight was really late with him only arriving in Stockholm around midnight, so we never got to see him until the next day and he missed out on the awesomeness that was the Cobalt launch.

    The next morning we got to sample the fabulous breakfast at Hotel Rival (where every room comes with its own teddy bear!) and then it was off to the Mojang HQ once again to start our meeting with Mojang on the future of Minecraft and modding - the main reason why we all made the trip out to Sweden in the first place. The meeting started off with each of us introducing ourselves and explaining what we did, followed by discussing Mojang's plans for Minecraft, modding and why we were invited to meet with them in Stockholm. A few hours later and we, reluctantly, decided to take a break from all the serious talk to get some Chinese food for lunch.

    Upon arriving back at the office, we continued our discussions until the phone rang. Apparently some people from Australia had made the trip all the way to Sweden to visit Mojang and they were downstairs waiting to be let in. Luckily for them, Carl and Jeb were meeting with us at the time so there were actually people in the office on a Saturday when the office would usually be empty. After greetings were exchanged, the visitors were given a tour of the office and then they had to run out to continue on with their trip.

    We decided to take a break ourselves and fired up Cobalt, where Jeb proceeded to school us on the game and we were shown a sneak peek of the internals of Cobalt and saw the potential the game has for modding and expansion. Cobalt is an extremely fun game that everyone should get, especially when you have several people who can play co-op with you. From a modding standpoint, we expect people to mod and extend it very soon which should provide you with many hours of extra replayability on top of the hours of fun the game already offers.

    All in all, we had a great time hanging out with Mojang and meeting all the talent they have in their team. Mojang's official statement about Bukkit is that "The Bukkit team are awesome dudes" and we genuinely feel the same way about them. Often times when you get to meet up with influential people, they have their heads in the clouds and won't show you the time of day but things at Mojang are really different. All of their employees are down to earth, humble and awesome individuals that you can't help but get along with. Letting the guests from Australia check out the Mojang HQ on a Saturday further nails this impression home.

    Thanks for the great time in Sweden, Mojang!

    So what does this all mean for Bukkit and Minecraft?
    While I can't go into any of the specifics, we spent an entire day discussing a lot about the future of modding in Minecraft (as well as Minecraft in general). The meeting with Mojang has left us feeling confident that Mojang knows the value of embracing the modding the community and Bukkit, and that Minecraft has been left in more than capable hands with jeb as lead developer. Mojang has expressed that they like what we're doing and see what we can offer them to help provide more official support to the Minecraft modding community.

    As originally announced, Mojang is looking into developing a modding API that covers both the server and the client and believe that we can help them in doing so. As it stands, we are both actively looking into how we can work together for the betterment of Minecraft in the future. Until the details are worked out, that's all we can really say at this time but I think I can honestly say we all left the meeting satisfied and excited about what the future has in store for us together if all goes to plan.
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    Well, I can't see anyone reacting nicely to ultimatums, if that is indeed the case. "Do this or else" rarely gets anyone to play nice together.

    However, as for more open there is Bukkit bleeding. As I have heard it explained, large changes were simply too cumbersome to undertake by the team alone, so Bleeding was setup to try to get the community to do some of the work - aka, writing the code, testing the code and ensuring it can be maintained in a sane fashion within Bukkit/CraftBukkit.

    Spout decided to create a new API after Bleeding was announced and I have not seen much effort by that team in working with Bleeding.

    Honestly, sounds like its a case of Spout getting frustrated and walking away from the Bukkit project. I can even understand this choice. I just want to make sure I have no misunderstandings as to the motivation behind doing it, because as far as I can see its not a technical limitation at all.
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    There's really nothing wrong with Spout trying something new. Politics and egos aside, I don't think anyone is losing anything from Spout creating their own server/api/client modifications. In the end, competition is good for the consumer, makes all involved products better.

    It's a lot to do, off the top of my head, block physics, mob pathing and AI, redstone mechanics, and they all have to match the quirkiness of vanilla. From there they have to add all the great features they're promising. Personally I wouldn't have the discipline to start such a huge project, it seems like a wall of work and issues, but they seem confident and that enthusiasm and optimism can at least be called impressive.

    Just because the developers are splitting off and creating their own project doesn't mean everyone has to take sides and back one project with an all or nothing gamble. It's just going to have both projects snidely commenting on how the other is doing x and y wrong and how their way is so much better and wasting time trying to justify everything they do. How about we let both projects follow their own philosophies and ideals and not waste time arguing over who's theoretical future features are so much superior. I know this is the internet but let's try not to be a massive cliche for once.

    Also, glad to see the Bukkit team had a good time Sweden. Always fun to see developers in a non-developer environment.
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    Indeed. If the server side got bukkit+spout and the client got spoutcraft I think we'd be in really good shape modding wise.

    bukkit+spout not bukkit+spoutcraft
    mbsuperstar1 likes this.
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    Server side can't have Spoutcraft.
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    I think people were getting caught up on my use of the word require. Any specific API calls that require a client mod would not be added to Bukkit. I was not talking about for connecting, I was talking about for using. Most of spouts API does actually require a client mod, that does not mean you cannot connect to a spout server without it, it just means the API does not work for that player. Regardless, I'm not sure who has access to bleeding, I know Afforess does but I can't even see the forums to have any discussion there/I wasn't invited and a lot of the rest of the team wasn't invited. How are we supposed to use it then? Proxy everything through Afforess?
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    Finally recognition from Mojang for Bukkit!

    Now we can do things properly :)
    Torrent likes this.
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    Thank you for the level-headed comment Swearword, I personally couldn't add more on to that other than to say that I don't see how Spout seperating itself from Bukkit would be seen as a "betrayal" or "grounds for a war".
    The beauty of the entire situation is that the best thing that comes from this is...
    • Hopefully a fully optimized multi-threaded server (what Vanilla should have been) that the biggest hosts have demanded and sought for-for the longest time now.
    • Backwards compatibility for Bukkit. Through a plugin of course and it will slow events down (as Bukkit has a slower event system) but it allows Admins to have a peace of mind knowing all their plugins will continue to work.
    • Even if the API will be similar, this is, in itself, a blessing. If a dev chooses, they can maintain both a Spout and Bukkit version of their product and the code base remains similar.
    • Bukkit has, for the longest time, been essentially the only thing "out there" that provides an easy to use API. This means it has had no competition and lack of competition always bears laziness. Now I am not saying that Bukkit has or hasn't been lazy but I would hope this would also have them "turn up their game".
    Inscrutable and Mukrakiish like this.
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    I think I have derailed this post enough, as this thread isn't about Spout. I'll just leave saying that I do not see Spout doing their own thing as a betrayal, or grounds for war. Nor do I see there being any harm, whatsoever, with some competition. In fact, I am looking forward to the server implementation formerly known as Glowstone.

    I was only hoping to get a better understanding of the Spout project as it left a great many questions that I could not find an adequate answer for, either on the Bukkit forums or the Spout forums. I believe I have received that answer and I thank everyone involved for the discussion.

    My apologies to EvilSeph, Grum, Dinnerbone and Tahg for derailing this post.
    Inscrutable and mbsuperstar1 like this.
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    Daniel Heppner

    What would be wrong wish this picture if Mojang made people use a mod for their own game.
  12. It wouldn't be a mod anymore if Mojang used it for vanilla.
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    Took them long enough to realise...
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    Well this seemed more productive than last meeting at least. :)

    I thought something like this would happen once Jeb took the reigns, Notch seemed to lack the sort of motivation for this kind of thing.
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    good work guys
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    While i see that this is a big step for bukkit, i am somewhat worried that the clientside modders are left in the dark.
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    It will be a few weeks but client side modders can take solace in the fact that the SpoutDev project should have something solid to present and use at that time :)
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    What i want to see si SPOUT integrated in Minecraft!That would be awesome!
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    So who is who in the photo, left to right? thanks!
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    Dinnerbone, Grum, Jeb, Tahg, EvilSeph
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    Imo, this would not be ideal. It would make for much slower development and gives SpoutDev less creativity because of Mojang restrictions. I'm pretty sure that's not what we're going for.
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    No, Spout is NOT clientside modding, Spout IS a server helper.
    There are many client only mods, what about those?
    Some people like to play alone (atleast when messing around) too!
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    No, Spout IS client side mod AND a server software implementation, SpoutPlugin, is the Bukkit plugin that gives you access to Spout's features.

    EDIT: This will give you a better idea.
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    Thats got to be the weirdest looking group of men I have ever saw.
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    Those weird men are the cool dudes who make the awesome stuff.
    Kohle likes this.
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    Go Bukkit!
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    Anyone notice that @Dinnerbone looks like a cardboard cutout that's bent?
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    Kohle likes this.
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    Ah, things are looking up again (still looking up, I never thought they were looking down anyway :p).

    I am very glad the Bukkit team and Mojang (still) get along very well, and that their general ideas for the future of MC are the same (or similar, though 'simlar' might not be enough).
    What I read between the lines of Dinnerbones post is that the Great Goal is to incorporate bukkit (-like features) and Spout (-like features) into MC vanilla.

    I do want to add that in the Bukkit-Spout-Mojang case, the community will be the major intrigant. Populist cryouts 'X is better blahblah' will split the community in opposing factions, even if the dev teams can work and live side-by-side in peace, knowing they essentially do the same thing, with a different focus.

    Such a split in the community can be easily prevented ofcourse if Mojang would 'go Spout', as in: redo the client, and its role in SMP, wich is again what the Bukkit team discussed in Sweden :).
    My contribution to the Bukkit-Spout-Mojang discussion, hidden for the sake of not trying to ruin the Bukkit-devs after party from their trip to Sweden:

    Show Spoiler

    The only real difference in philophy between the Bukkit and the Spout project is that the Bukkit project does not incorporate any client modification whatsoever, at this point (we all know getting the server side done is a big enough task already). Ofcourse the devs would love to be able to do the things the Spout project does, but they very wisely chose to work on the server side only, to make sure Bukkit stays focused, usable and not a messy pile of code that tries to do everything.

    While the Spout project moves along the logical course of MC modding by building upon Bukkits work on the server side, and dares to take on the issues on the Client (like @Grum said, its knows way too much). A very brave and daring undertaking since it is a lot to ask from the great mass of MC users to 'install a mod', and make those extra features actually work (as a server owner, I simply love the packet handling and the inventory API).
    The bukkit team prefers to let the Client changes be handled by Mojang, Spout decided not to wait.

    Both projects still work side-by-side on the same thing, but both chose to focus on one aspect to make sure their project stays focused and will not fragmentate.
    Even if Spout would launch a competing server mod, they will probably base it on bukkit code, and there (hopefully) will not be any hostile fealings to one another, they still try to acomplish the same thing.

    Holy crap, I just read the new year plans for Spout, this is serious buisiness, but again, we can prevent a split in the community if ffffff Mojang would 'go spout'.
    Also, Spouts intentions are slightly frightning, the overall scale and implications of that undertaking... they essentially hijack the entire Minecraft game, (with best intentions ofcourse).
    Damnit Mojang, get your ass moving, simply HIRE the spout and bukkit teams to pull this off, there is no way a few fulltime programmers can keep up with the demands, plans and improvements of a community our size.
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    Minecraft Mod API would be awesome! It would allow the server to manipulate the client without needing a client side mod! per server configurations and GUI's, custom blocks and items, heck even vehicles! ( i still want a catapult in this game ) and when its all over, the client returns to normal!
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    Celtic Minstrel

    This makes the illogical assumption that the client was temporarily modded by the server. While this may technically be possible, they'd be incredibly stupid to actually do it that way (modifying your own code isn't exactly a good plan especially when you don't completely control what the modifications are); more likely they'd just get models and textures from the server and render them using the same routines that are used for the vanilla stuff.
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