Bukkit visits Mojang!

Discussion in 'Bukkit News' started by EvilSeph, Dec 21, 2011.

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    We got to visit Mojang in Sweden!

    For those of you who want to hear what we did in Sweden, read on. For those of you who just want to know what this means for Bukkit and Minecraft, skip to the end.

    This past weekend Bukkit went on a trip to visit Mojang in Stockholm, Sweden and we had a blast. Dinnerbone and myself arrived pretty late in Sweden so we were almost certain no one would be at the Mojang HQ, but to our surprise the place was packed with employees hard at work getting their new game, Cobalt, out instead of tearing each other apart in their usual Friday game nights. Tahg had the earliest flight out of the four of us, so he got to spend the whole day with Mojang and got to share a juicy steak with them in between the craziness accompanying a game launch.

    It was really exhilarating being a part of Cobalt's launch and actually physically being there as it happened - the energy coming from the team pushing to get Cobalt out was electric and contagious. After we got a tour of Mojang's (pretty awesome) office, we spent the rest of the day hanging out with beers and soda in hand just getting to know the Mojang team and watching them scramble about getting Cobalt ready for release. Funnily enough, while this was all happening, our phones were alight with messages and/or tweets from people asking us when Cobalt would be out - it was all so surreal - but, of course, we couldn't answer those questions even if we did know.

    Eventually Carl decided it was time for a break and got us all pizza for dinner (I found it pretty cool that we each got our own pizzas, it was very different from Canada where you either get slices or a large pizza to share), with Carl getting his favourite pizza aptly named 'The Internet' as it had everything thrown on it. Beer and pizza turned out to be all the fuel the team needed to push Cobalt out there for public consumption, as immediately after dinner everything was ready for launch and people could finally take a breather. Unfortunately, the insanity continued: the hard work from everyone was simply replaced with all of us sat in front of the screen watching the Cobalt sales counter go up until late into the night. Sadly, Grum's flight was really late with him only arriving in Stockholm around midnight, so we never got to see him until the next day and he missed out on the awesomeness that was the Cobalt launch.

    The next morning we got to sample the fabulous breakfast at Hotel Rival (where every room comes with its own teddy bear!) and then it was off to the Mojang HQ once again to start our meeting with Mojang on the future of Minecraft and modding - the main reason why we all made the trip out to Sweden in the first place. The meeting started off with each of us introducing ourselves and explaining what we did, followed by discussing Mojang's plans for Minecraft, modding and why we were invited to meet with them in Stockholm. A few hours later and we, reluctantly, decided to take a break from all the serious talk to get some Chinese food for lunch.

    Upon arriving back at the office, we continued our discussions until the phone rang. Apparently some people from Australia had made the trip all the way to Sweden to visit Mojang and they were downstairs waiting to be let in. Luckily for them, Carl and Jeb were meeting with us at the time so there were actually people in the office on a Saturday when the office would usually be empty. After greetings were exchanged, the visitors were given a tour of the office and then they had to run out to continue on with their trip.

    We decided to take a break ourselves and fired up Cobalt, where Jeb proceeded to school us on the game and we were shown a sneak peek of the internals of Cobalt and saw the potential the game has for modding and expansion. Cobalt is an extremely fun game that everyone should get, especially when you have several people who can play co-op with you. From a modding standpoint, we expect people to mod and extend it very soon which should provide you with many hours of extra replayability on top of the hours of fun the game already offers.

    All in all, we had a great time hanging out with Mojang and meeting all the talent they have in their team. Mojang's official statement about Bukkit is that "The Bukkit team are awesome dudes" and we genuinely feel the same way about them. Often times when you get to meet up with influential people, they have their heads in the clouds and won't show you the time of day but things at Mojang are really different. All of their employees are down to earth, humble and awesome individuals that you can't help but get along with. Letting the guests from Australia check out the Mojang HQ on a Saturday further nails this impression home.

    Thanks for the great time in Sweden, Mojang!

    So what does this all mean for Bukkit and Minecraft?
    While I can't go into any of the specifics, we spent an entire day discussing a lot about the future of modding in Minecraft (as well as Minecraft in general). The meeting with Mojang has left us feeling confident that Mojang knows the value of embracing the modding the community and Bukkit, and that Minecraft has been left in more than capable hands with jeb as lead developer. Mojang has expressed that they like what we're doing and see what we can offer them to help provide more official support to the Minecraft modding community.

    As originally announced, Mojang is looking into developing a modding API that covers both the server and the client and believe that we can help them in doing so. As it stands, we are both actively looking into how we can work together for the betterment of Minecraft in the future. Until the details are worked out, that's all we can really say at this time but I think I can honestly say we all left the meeting satisfied and excited about what the future has in store for us together if all goes to plan.
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    Bad Java joke:
    while(BukkitTeam.isNotPartOf("Mojang") {
        Integer appreciationForBukkit++;
  3. @Kaikz

    Sorry, missed that part.

    That is horrible. Why would you ever use the object wrapper for a native type in a loop like that?

    EDIT by Moderator: merged posts, please use the edit button instead of double posting.
    Last edited by a moderator: May 22, 2016
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    That was planned for a long time (see http://forums.bukkit.org/threads/a-meeting-with-mojang-specifications.1292/ ).
    It would be very cool for "us" SMP gamers, because Mojang would be forced to fix all the SMP bugs, and optimize it. They seem to privilege the single player experience.

    The downside about this is that it would nearly double the amount of memory you need to play Minecraft in single player.
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    The best thing for the community would be a strong alliance between Mojang and Bukkit. The worst thing for the community would be abandoning Bukkit and making everyone move to yet another server (new Mojang vanilla or whatever).

    Bukkit is already stable and great, with thousands of developers writing code on it. Take that and make it the MC standard. Build on top of what Bukkit already is if you want to add client side modding etc.
    Addicust, mbaxter and ks07 like this.
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    Very interested to see what comes out of this, could be the way to finally have mods (especially client mods) all working together with as few conflicts as humanly possible. As for the server, let's hope that any official server system stays as close as possible to what we have now.
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    I wish them luck in their endeavour. However, it seems like it would be easier to contribute to an existing system rather than re-inventing the wheel. A new API will ensure compatibility issues with existing plugins. If the API's were the same, why reinvent it? I'll be eager to try when they actually have something that is fleshed out. I can't run a server on promises of the future, no matter how grand those promises are.

    Your statement also makes it sound like they're abandoning Bukkit. I hope that's not the case. :(
    iPhysX likes this.
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    Well the API is in dev at the moment and apparently will have a plugin to allow all bukkit plugins to run.

    Edited: I'd suggest stopping in at www.getspout.org and read up for your information =) I don't want to make it sound like I know about this project in concrete terms, make your own conclusions from the amazing dev's themselves =)
  9. Sounds awesome :D
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    A fun story indeed. My best to the bukkit team and its future.

    Have some cake.[cake]
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    Your post confuses Bukkit (The API) with CraftBukkit (The server implementation of that API).

    I have honestly expected more competing server implementations of the Bukkit API (aka, Glowstone). I still have yet to see a compelling reason to have yet another api for server modifications. There is already Bukkit, Canary, mineserver.be, and now Spout. They are simply recreating the wheel with their own API.

    A new server implementation based off the existing API is very likely to keep plugins compatible (unless those plugins are built using CraftBukkit methods, instead of the Bukkit API, which is not encouraged). A new API means, that while, yes, existing plugins may work, there is no assurance they will continue to work in the future.

    Edit: Mineserver.be, not mineserver.de.
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    There is a lot of API we could never get pulled because there would be no way they would allow it to be implemented in Craftbukkit. That's pretty much the number 1 reason to split. We're doing stuff like cubic chunks, allowing the height limit change natively, etc.

    Inscrutable likes this.
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    I think it was mentioned before, but large changes to the API were very difficult to merge in without a great deal of changes and a great deal of testing as a result. This is what Bleeding is meant to accomplish, as it allows for those large changes and testing to be helped along by the community.

    Your statement makes me even more concerned about compatibility in the future, however, I do appreciate the response.
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    There are extreme differences in philosophy, they would never accept anything that required a modified client into Bukkit.

    EDIT: Until they release their own modified client of course.
    Inscrutable likes this.
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    My thoughts is that both Canary and Mineserver.be (not .de) are both dead in the water from lack of proper outlook on what could/should have been done from the beginning. They didn't want to work with Bukkit in terms of idea's, they just bashed it and they eventually died. Canary may be still straggling but...mineserver looks pretty dead.
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    Yeah to the best of my knowledge they never had any real goals or direction except "not bukkit". That's not really a lot to go on, it was a difficult to decision for us to even decide we needed to do it, but we are doing this to meet our goals.
    Mukrakiish likes this.
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    That's exactly why I'm following you guys closely, because its not a rebellious effort, simply limitations for what needs to be done. The things I'd like out of the future of MC has been with you guys, so it only makes sense to keep an eye on things and urge the work you do forward. Of course, always much appreciation for how far Bukkit has gotten and gone, that should never be left out of this equation. <3
    Inscrutable likes this.
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    I need to get clarification from the team on this, as I know the goal of Bukkit is not client modding. However, I'm not sure that the API explicitly denies all API features that could be used for client modding, the API just ensures that you'll never NEED a client mod to use the CraftBukkit server.

    I guess my point is that if the Spout API is changing the game that much that the Spout server (formerly Glowstone) REQUIRES a client mod in order to work (I'm guessing SpoutCraft will be that client mod), I don't see how you can ensure 100% compatibility with Bukkit plugins and the reverse would be impossible (Spout plugins working on CraftBukkit).

    Also, I'm not saying any of the other API's are or are not crap. They simply exist - that was my only point.
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    From what has gone on, the new Spout API does not require client modification. That it will have a bridge plugin to allow for bukkit plugin function as well as vanilla client connection (just like with Spout plugins, simply no access to Spout features). That way, it has all Spout needs, covers CraftBukkit compatibility and allows vanilla clients.
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    The bukkit team has some kind of plan for client modding, @Grum brings it up like it's a super secret project all the time in discussions in #spoutdev like he knows something we don't. :p

    Part of that is the reason too. There is some obtuse master plan Bukkit has that they are either making up or not sharing.
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    Love it. Super jealous. Wish I had more time to program.
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    Grum Bukkit Team Member

    It's not a secret that with the current state of the client (read: it knowing too much) it's a pain in the ass to do some of the changes on the server, let alone on the client. During our meeting with Mojang we've suggested again to go with a 'client that is stupid' (ea does: sound, gui, 3d and userinput) and make the server decide on the rest. This has also already been said by Mojang themselves in the meeting we had early januari (2011).

    It would be a lot of work to get the client to that point but it will make the modding that much easier (talking a couple of factors here). Hopefully we can somehow get that work done and eventually making an API for the client will be less of a pain.
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    For all those who think this, Spout does NOT require a client mod! Spout is ENHANCED by use of the SpoutCraft Client but does not require it's use.

    However, Spout alone as a plugin server side does many great things for a Bukkit server, most significantly in how it handles packets. Other plugins such as TyOreObfuscation and VanishNoPacket - take advantage of this modification in such a way that default Minecraft client or SpoutCraft client both benefit.

    Just my two cents on something I keep seeing alot of.. off-topic, yay, ra-ra go bukkit very cool news.
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    Maybe they can put Spout in the normal Minecraft Client??? :D
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    Right, and the major difference between our teams as I see it is that we don't want to wait for that and don't think the community will want to wait for that. Your team all has real jobs to keep you busy, most of us don't. :p

    That is to say, it's clear to me that 11 months was already a long time to wait for the client to become a dummy local server.
    Inscrutable and Mukrakiish like this.
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    Yes, you're right. They do not require it now, however, from what I have ascertained they want to make API changes that when implemented by the server (Glowstone) MAY require a client mod in the future. This is what has been said:

    The Bukkit team has stated their API (and server implementation of that API - CraftBukkit) will never require a client mod, so yes, this statement above is absolutely correct. So, if the API changes Spout wants to make are ones that would require the server implementation to use a client mod, they'd get denied. However, after my discussion with the team, I have been assured that API changes that may help in client modding, but do not force a modded client are changes that may be considered and implemented.

    Anyway, I am eager to see what the new Spout server (formerly Glowstone) can do.
    Inscrutable likes this.
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    Spout (Glowstone) will not require a client mod; that's kind of the whole point that the client mod enhances the experience but doesn't isolate users without it.
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    uhhh.... we will never require a client mod, as others have stated, Spoutcraft only enhances it, it isn't required...
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    My initial question is "Why reinvent the wheel with a new API?". The only answer I have received is quoted again below:

    As long as the API and implementation of that API do not require client mods, the API change will be considered in the Bukkit API. So, at this point, I can guess the reason for the new API is either because they don't want to work with the Bukkit team, or because they want to reserve the right to include an API call in their server implementation that requires a client mod.
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    My understanding is that @SpoutDev has tried desperately to include Spout in Bukkit but has been put down multiple times. Also my understanding is the SpoutDev told Bukkit that if they were not more opened to Spout within a month, they would start their own server implementation of their SpoutAPI. They gave them two. Can you vouch for my accuracy @alta189 ?
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