Bukkit is dieing....We must save it!

Discussion in 'Bukkit Discussion' started by EnderBrine101, Apr 9, 2015.

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  1. Right, Bukkit had some old but unresolved bugs. That's no secret. Did Spigot fix this bug either? I'm not sure. My point wasn't that Spigot has bugs, it's that they refuse to acknowledge that it's a problem. I doubt any of the Bukkit staff at the time would have taken a look at that report and said "no it's meant to be like that".

    @pookeythekid Spigot have their forums. There's literally no good reason for Bukkit to exist purely to support a different software. It makes no sense, and claims that Bukkit forums should exist for transitional purposes are just silly really. Move on to the forums of the places that make the software or, if you want a place where lots of different ones are talked about, the minecraft forums.
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    I updated Bukkit/Craftbukkit on my own as a derivative to how Spigot updated it (for the gist of it), but it will remain unofficial as it wasn't updated by the original team. They resigned, there's no point in coming back continue development. There's many alternatives, use them.

    Long story short, what you're saying is relatively impossible/pointless.
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    Well what exactly makes Bukkit/CraftBukkit that? Being made by the team?
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    According to former Bukkit staff, yeah.

    When Spigot updated Craftbukkit/Bukkit to 1.8, the former Bukkit staff said that because it wasn't them that did it, their builds are unofficial. Unless the Bukkit staff miraculously come back together and continue development, continued builds will still remain unofficial.
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    Not unstable?! Don't make me laugh.

    A spigot bug that was REALLY OBVIOUS that they chose to ignore caused every spigot server on the planet to crash at the same time.
    And security?
    How about ignoring a bug that let ANYONE sign in as ANYONE without any authentication whatsoever?

    Spigot is a sad excuse for a server software and the new Bukkit builds really can't be trusted.
    I'm waiting for trident
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2015
    nverdier and bwfcwalshy like this.
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    @AdamQpzm I never said anything about the forums. When I was referring to Bukkit, I meant the API. If Spigot runs their CB/Bukkit builds into the ground (or, in others' opinions, further into the ground), there's definitely going to be a transition. If developers want to continue making their plugins, they'll have to use a new API. A Bukkit bridge from another, more functional mod such as Trident would provide some transition time.
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    Bukkit isnt dead, spigot is the new bukkit. it's the same code, try making a 1.7.9 bukkit server, remove the craftbukkit.jar and add the Spigot 1649 build renamed to craftbukkit.jar ... it works just like bukkit even better you can join with any version, that build of spigot is basically bukkit 1.7-1.8 combined into one .jar file. Bukkit may be dead but the code lives on.
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    The Bukkit ship is sinking. It's time to be saved by another server mod ship passing by. What Spigot is doing would be the equivalent of using Bukkits to collect water and throw it out to make it sink more slowly.
  9. @Spaace That's really not true. The code isn't living on, it got dmca'd. Spigot shouldn't be the new Bukkit as discussed on many other threads Spigot is not a good go to jar. I'd say stick with that you have available until Trident, then move over.
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    @bwfcwalshy the reason i switched to spigot 1649 was because of the support it had for versions 1.7-1.8,
    craftbukkit 1.7.9 R0.2 gave me a ton of problems that i had to resolve, if there was a way that i can make it support 1.7-1.8 clients, i would switch back over to bukkit.
  11. @Spaace According to Mojang's latest statistics (which was ~1-2 months ago) the majority of people were on 1.8 and around 40% of servers were on Java 8 (unrelated but still an interesting fact) so I see no reason anymore to support 1.7 but that is just my personal opinion.
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    alot of useful plugins haven't been updated to 1.8, most of my server is consisting on 1.7 plugins
  13. @Spaace I don't know any that aren't anymore. Essentials, mcMMO, WorldGuard etc

    Anyway, this is getting really offtopic.
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    @bwfcwalshy, not too badly.
    As far as trident and glowstone though, I really havent seen any recent news about being close to a release, which is what bukkit really needs right now- a legacy. Right now it's an illegal jar that is being run by a bunch of vain bug ignoring fools that, ironically, hate that these forums even exist. I can't tell you how many bukkit hate statements i have seen on spigot forums. IT'S THE STINKING JAR THEY BUILD OFF OF. (To those who think i am being hypocritical, spigot pushes out flawed update after flawed update while i have NEVER seen a single bug in Bukkit since I started using it. I have reasons to be judgmental, they do not. For goodness sake they build off of our work and their forums are almost an exact copy.)

    Bukkit is gone and there is no denying it, but I really want these forums and bukkit's legacy to remain one of positivity, and spigot just isn't fufilling that.
    bwfcwalshy and nverdier like this.
  15. @pookeythekid My apologies, I assumed you were talking about the forums.

    You see, it's stuff like this which is what makes Spigot not the same as Bukkit. This is called a protocol hack, and is the sort of thing that Bukkit refused to do for a very good reason - a protocol hack is not an update, it's simply an unstable way of allowing multiple versions join together. And don't pretend it's not unstable - protocol hacks very often cause issues. I remember once that one of the servers I played on used a protocol hack, and because of it it was impossible to craft. Once they removed the hack, everything was working fine.

    To quote #essentials' auto message:

    I also find it very distressing that a moderator "sees no reason to support 1.7 anymore"... There is no Bukkit 1.8, and never will be. If there's no reason for 1.7, there's no reason for these forums.
    Spaace likes this.
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    that is so true, bukkit is all about 1.7x
    AdamQpzm likes this.
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    Here's the thing about open source licenses such as the GPL and LGPL, they permit forking, they are not intended to provide a function for you to kill a project and all forks thereof, and anyone abusing some legal technicality of these licenses in order to do that probably shouldn't be let near any open source projects ever again. It goes against every principle of the open source development model. If someone else wants to fork your work and carry it on after you're done, give them your blessing and get on with whatever else you've chosen to work with.

    And the above mentioned legal technicalities are the only reason Spigot doesn't conform to your definition of "free".

    Personally Craftbukkit never conformed to my own definition of "free" since the developers kept some parts of the update process behind closed doors, making it very hard for a true fork to exist entirely independently. Thankfully no longer true for Spigot's unofficial fork of it.

    It's not about winning or losing, the space is large enough for several server APIs and implementations, and I wish anyone working (in the loosest sense of the word, most devs don't receive anything resembling a salary) in the space the best of luck. No one API or implementation will ever be best, it's about whether the product is right for you and your purposes.

    The thing that tires me the most is people who pick on one fact (some exploit, or ticket, which they deem to have been handled incorrectly) and hold it up as an example as to why something is good or bad, go use it yourself rather than quoting some internet circle jerk like reddit, then your opinion will be valid and worth listening to. It's not like Bukkit's ex-developers (or any for that matter) write perfect code that doesn't sometimes break, or handled every ticket ever posted on their bug tracker correctly.
    coldandtired likes this.
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    @CyberianTiger Indeed there is room for many APIs, but considering that Spigot has come out with the most popular CB build (I am well aware that it's not a "true CraftBukkit") and not all of the other projects which arose from the DMCA have taken off quite yet, Spigot seems to be the most popular refuge for CB servers.

    I didn't quite mean some mistreated issue or annoying bug that gets popular when I mentioned the possibility of a crash or exploit. Actually, I may have been very wrong about it. I figured if something goes horribly wrong with Spigot at a time when the alternatives are popular, a large chunk of the Spigot users will seek out something else that works, at least for the time being until Spigot makes itself functional again. But then even after the Great Spigot Crash (which I actually didn't know about until this thread) and the DMCA they're still alive and popular, so maybe they're going to stick around for a while.
  19. The problem with the situation is that CraftBukkit/Spigot is not true GPL - that's why the DMCA takedown happened. CraftBukkit has never truly been free, even though it was treated as such. The fact remains that NMS cannot be licensed under GPL, and until Mojang decides otherwise, that's the way it's going to remain. Sure Wolvereness may have been the one to file the takedown notice, but the problem is that any of the developers or Mojang could have done it, any time they felt like it. This is why it's not true GPL, and it should be. But it can't be.

    Calling it a technicality doesn't diminish the seriousness of it.

    I'm still yet to see you demonstrate what exactly was hidden.

    I quote that because it's the only thing I really had to hand, especially considering I can't access Spigot at work. The problem isn't really the ticket itself anyway, the problem is the attitude demonstrated by the project's leader, a person some are viewing as some sort of saviour. He's breaking the specification he is meant to be following, and he refuses to see why that might be a problem. He handles disclosure very irresponsibly. He blames bugs that Spigot have on upstream, regardless of whether it actually existed there or not. He basically piggybacks on the popularity of other things - he updated "Bukkit" and "CraftBukkit" despite the fact he's not on the Bukkit team, he updated "Essentials" despite the fact that the majority of the Essentials team were not involved, and they forced him to rename it. Doing these things are just ultimately confusing for the users, but who cares right? So long as Spigot is profiting, it doesn't really matter.
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    @AdamQpzm At least personally, it's more like it's just what's out there to use--that is, while still using Bukkit plugins. CraftBukkit went away, so Spigot came out with whatever form of it they could slap together and make available, and now I am among the users of it simply because I'm not ready to let go of my Bukkit plugins. The same goes for Essentials TeamCity--I greatly desired not to go around replacing Essentials' features with other plugins, so I found Spigot's 1.8 build quite convenient.
  21. @pookeythekid And you're free to do that, I've no right to stop you. But - to bring it back on topic - those things hardly demonstrate that Bukkit (as a project or a site) are 'alive'.
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    @AdamQpzm Not to intentionally revive an old thread, but Bukkit and CraftBukkit are both projects stored in Git. According to Torvalds himself, git is distributed, and no one branch (be it the original authors or another's) truly has any more significance than any other branch. A maintainer of a project is anyone who is actively - in one way or another - maintaining a branch of the repository. As there are currently very active maintainers of the Bukkit, CraftBukkit, Spigot, and further derivative projects, the project can not be considered "dead."

    As for this site, it is pretty much dead. I just come here every now and again for the humor of butt-hurt people crying and in denial of the continuation of the Bukkit & CraftBukkit projects elsewhere.
  23. @twizmwazin It really doesn't matter what any one person says, no matter how famous they are in the computing world. It doesn't change the fact that a version of CraftBukkit that I update should not be labelled as such, because people will naturally associate it with this project and site, even though it shouldn't be associated as such.
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    That's going to be a problem
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    36k Craftbukkit so still a lot of life in the old girl yet. (unknown how many are the spigot build tho)
    75k Spigot so usage has exploded.

    Over 700 issues resolved, mostly only minor issues open.

    Five months since last legal threat to shut it down. I wouldn't call it shady any more. I'd call it legal. If you want to play 1.8, you are looking at the code from that team.

    Trident still not ready. Last update on home page was February... top issue making water flow.
    Sponge has an alpha release. It's probably over 6 months away from being safe to run an existing server on. Fun to try a new one.
    Rainbow is in a similar state to Sponge.

    Minecraft 1.9 is probably under 8 months away now. I expect Spigot to be 1.9 ready. I don't think anything else will be. So realistically- unless you are planning on not playing the current version of minecraft until mid to late 2016, you are going to end up on spigot, or the craftbukkit built using the spigot process.

    Weighed against this is the fact that a large group of Minecraft programmers dislike Spigot and won't support it. If I had to bet long term, I'd say Sponge or Rainbow will eventually replace Bukkit. It'll be hard to get a lot of people to switch tho. If your server is working-- it's a hassle and a big risk to try new server software. Much safer for new servers than existing servers.

    My interest in Minecraft has been waning. I've done just about everything you can do five or six times, upside down and sideways. I spent the last month on Boom Beach and Clash of Kings. Take my advice and stay away from Clash of Kings. The game is fine- but it has developed a culture of national alliances of 300 to 500 players acting together against everyone else on the server. So basically, spend 3-4 weeks playing and then one day you get attacked over a hundred times by groups of 4 to 5 players and everything is destroyed and you are reduced back to nothing. Kinda pointless!

    Looking for the next great game. I don't think 1.9 is going to introduce enough to keep me engaged. I want to be engaged but I've just done everything you can do in minecraft to death.
    pookeythekid likes this.
  26. 100 years could pass and it wouldn't stop being shady.
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    I have to say, Bukkit has came a long ways and it is truly a work of art when it comes to software. However, there are many alternatives to this, such as Spigot, and newfound 'Sponge', made by devs over on /r/admincraft. And it's not smart to avoid the Mods by posting this. (rip)
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