About bukkit =)

Discussion in 'Bukkit Discussion' started by zipron, Mar 9, 2012.

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    The biggest change that worries me is that the MC API is closed source. I see a lot of developers afraid of people 'stealing' ideas and it's complete nonsense. Even if the MC API turns out MUCH better than Spout it will ultimately be hobbled by the lack of community fixes.
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    Ok so can I recap thing for myself?

    the bukkit team (part of it) will create a multiplayer API for mojang? like they did with bukkit but now more official? did I get that right? And the closed source is bad yes.. Will that mean there will be no opporunity to write plugins? or is that something different?

    sorry for noob questions btw but I'm confused xD
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    Yes plugins will be possible. But consider this scenario:

    I write a plugin and while doing so find a bug in Bukkit. I create a quick fix, submit the patch and if all goes well, it's fixed in a few days.

    MC API:
    I write a plugin and while doing so find a bug. I can't see the MC source and have no idea what is wrong. I open a ticket and if I'm lucky, someone at Mojang fixes it in a few months. (Months have been the past time for prev mc bugs... Remember chunk holes?)

    With Open source I can maintain and fix bugs myself. And in my case I literally do - I maintain a fork of Bukkit. I couldn't do that with the MC API.
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    /me still "waits" for a fix about the performance problems in spout.
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    Reality is that plugins really can't fix performance. At best they are neutral. Performance has to be fixed at a lower level. I have performance fixes but can't discuss it here due to rules...
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    ok thanks for that explication =) I understand now.. Yea I wonder how many plugin dev'rs bukkit has, mojang dev'rs + bukkit team = 20?? So I can imagine bugfixing takes a while (I even notice that when looking at the singleplayer game)

    But wait.. could you explain why you were so negative at the spout forums (the quote I made in the beginning of this topic) because imo it still isn't a good way of promoting your project, no?

    EDIT by Moderator: merged posts, please use the edit button instead of double posting.
    Last edited by a moderator: May 24, 2016
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    Don Redhorse

    he is not talking about spout... he is talking about something the bukkit team doesn't want to be discussed here...

    for one valid reason... trying to figure out what is wrong with craftbukkit only to figure out that the person is not running craftbukkit but a modified version just wastes time..

    the problem is that you are not allowed to talk about it in here so people can't discuss anything here, and a lot of people don't read or understand the difference between something which is not the "same" thing, aka a fork with modified code.

    the problem the bukkit team has is that a lot of people running servers are "uneducated" in the area of reporting bugs .

    I get a lot of "it's broken please fix", without people posting a log, and when the post the log they don't post the version.. only after testing I find out that they are using a dev-build, older version or broken version of bukkit.

    So every developer has the same issue like the bukkit team..

    EvilSeph has started very good after the last shitstorm hitting the fan... we have seen some very good decisions lately like R6 / R7 / R8 for which I FULLY support and applaud him.. even if I still not agree on the way he handles it and why we needed those RB in the first place.

    Both sides are right if you look at the discussion about Bukkit... Bukkit the api will die, except somebody steps up and takes over the legacy left by the bukkit team moving over to mojang.

    Ofcourse Mojang could take the cheap road and keep bukkit as a forum for their OWN Api and try to keep the developer ecosystem happy, but I don't think it would be a good idea to try to inject a closed source system into a semi open community.

    Also what is still not very clear is the way Mojang will communicate with the community, their track record and the track record of the bukkit team in this area is not always very good.

    I know that the team is busy trying to push out RB for 1.2.3 and let's wait for that, plus some time to relax but I think the community has the right to get a lot of information after that. From Mojang especially... because the API will come from Mojang not from 4 members of the Bukkit team.

    And seeing that Mojang has several people who SHOULD be working on this "merger" and on the community aspect it astonishes me (well not really) that we haven't seen anything yet about the plans on how this merger goes further.
    Inscrutable likes this.
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    Two things about that:
    As long as mojang keeps updating minecraft, things will stay bugged, if we talk about bukkit, spout or even vanilla MC.. I though that with the release of MC 1.0, that was it. I agree that all additions since 1.0 are very nice, a lot better than everything before 1.0 (at least if we talk about survival) and a lot of cool features are added. But I think (and this has actually nothing to do with bukkit) that mojang is modding the game now in stead of updating. In my opinion, MC 1.0 should be the final version (maybe with more features then we got at minecon, yes, but for me the game is finished). I believe that they should stop making new things, and try to develop an API such as spout wants to do: (I'm not a spout expert, not at all): allowing mods to be in SMP. For me, That is the most cool feature ever saw in SMP history of MC, but I don't think spout can achieve that as long as mojang doesn't support it. But the mod aspect in SMP is one thing that should be made for SMP, but also make it work correct, not making workarounds to achieve something buggy.

    Conclusion for me about mojang: they should focus on SMP now, they've focusses on SP for, how long? 2 years? Yes they've hired some of the bukkit team members, but will it be enough to create a 100% SMP API? and how long will it take?

    Second thing: you've mentioned non-skilled admins. I actually wanted to post a discussion about that topic today but I thought it would be too rude. However I do want to say something: I believe that most server admins do it for fun: playing with friends, using some cool plugins,.. There is a minority who takes things serious, knows what they are doing. The majority (like you've mentioned) don't know how to read java errors, or worse: they cannot even make a batch file.. Don't even mention installing a plugin and configuring the YML of it.. It's sad to see because (I'm an ICT guy) it's really easy if you take some time to understand it. I'm think you've read my things about plugin development. Now it takes me a long time, posting forum topics over and over again, but I'm interested and motivated. And that is how server admins should behave. There are some good MC server out there, but I can just get very irritated by people who don't know what they are doing when they try to set up a server. Maybe SMP should give two possibilities: the one-click server setup, an exe or jar which installs everything (also plugins) and provides a GUI for all admin-related tasks (which would take a while to develop) and the bukkit as we know it now but of course made better, faster, less buggy,..

    We all still have a long way to go untill the Minecraft chapter is closed, but for sure: the game of the century!
    efstajas and Don Redhorse like this.
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    Don Redhorse

    well non-skilled admin are not the problem... everybody can learn.. if they don't want...well who cares.. I did a lot of forum support and you can help a lot of people but not all of them... good documentation and a lot of help is key though.. something I miss here... some people are really outstanding though and IRC is also a way to sometime get some help.

    concerning IT... well I still fall for the same errors or negleting some things like everybody else.. forgetting the bukkit versione etc.. but I at least try.. and to end with a soup of letters..

    CNI, CNE, MCNE, MCNI, MCSE, VCP, itProject+, itSecurity and some others I forgot.. which means probably I should know how to make bug reports... but even I forget... shame on me..
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    Sure, the people who try, that's ok, if we talk about setting up a server, developing a plugin, an API, a game,.. but I can sometimes really get annoyeb by people who just don't want to try and think forum = solve..
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    Don Redhorse

    yeah... but this is a different kind of community.. a lot of non IT people... but still people should try to search and read...

    my personal favorite to help people is to post the solution but not the way...

    so if you have a knowledgebase I will post the solution and tell them that there is a knowledgebase article about it on how to get that solution... most of the time people come back with telling me the found the article now... and they learned how to use the search..

    I think you get the drift... similar to the post I did I your thread about config files :D
    zipron likes this.
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    If by "unfiltered truth" you mean "somewhat skewed in favor of my personal agenda", then absolutely.
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    At the beginning of this topic I said we were going to try not to be rude, however, I do agree with you.
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    Negative how? Point out the false negativity for me.

    I see evidence supporting my arguments and none supporting yours. Which is skewed again?
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    Unlike Windows, if Minecraft needs to get fixed quickly we can't rely on an easy Security Update. And if the community makes the needed update, it wouldn't be safe to use. I wouldn't download an unofficial windows patch.

    No matter how we look at it, Mojang doesn't have the test team required to deliver bug-free updates. The fact that we are on 1.2.3 instead of 1.2 proves it.

    The only thing I'm hoping is that removing a layer will help to keep servers updated faster (removing Bukkit layer means not waiting 1 month for an update). The API will mean they wait a little longer before releasing an update and once it's out we can start fixing our server mods.
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    If this is the truth, could you please tell us where you've got this information from?

    Seriously, you're not doing more than speculating, like everybody else. I believe that the update will not be that bad, you believe the opposite - problem is that you don't say "I'm speculating". If I were you, I would at least add some "I think"s to your post.
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    I am very sorry to say so, but the way you act is to try promote your own project, while saying bad things of other ones (I believe there is a nice English word for that, I cannot remember it atm). tbh, I don't care which project is the best, I care if that best project keeps updating, trying to be bug-free, trying to make a nice API, doing their best. What you do is breaking down other projects which is very pathetic in my opinion. Bukkit is way more developed then spout (maybe that means something) It is not perfect but what do you think will happen when bukkit works together with mojang? Yes, they have to create a new API, very likely a better one than bukkit is at the moment, better than spout is at the moment. I believe in people who want to create a good platform for all of us, and do it in a legit way: working hard for it, not breaking down others.

    I'm sorry this sounds rude but spout really stops here for me.

    EDIT by Moderator: merged posts, please use the edit button instead of double posting.
    Last edited by a moderator: May 24, 2016
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    Not talking about plugins.
    So spout team says again its my pc? (i7-920 @ 4.5ghz, 12gb ddr3 ram @ 1600mhz and amd 6970 2gb with no onboard gpu on mb) is not good enough to play Minecraft?
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    that'sss a nice pc you have there =)

    sorry for the quote of myzself above, no idea how that happened =)
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    So, by the looks of it. You have ill-formed Spout fan boys spitting hate at Bukkit (sweeping all of bukkit and staff into one lump) while keeping Spout in the side of their mouth...making Spout look bad. Which is bad form and makes everyone look bad.

    Then you have Bukkit fan boys bitching that everything Spout (sweeping all of Spout staff and its project into one lump) with hatred, usually have Afforess at the headline, but they essentially are smearing the entire thing. Its just easier to keep a head-pin while smearing it to add credential to it. Usually HateForAfforess == HateForSpout (without any real reading, reason or intelligent thought put into it)

    Then you have the people inbetween who either couldn't give a crap what is going to come of it and just want to see something solid emerge from this mess...or remaining people, who see issues on both sides, recognize the issues and talk about them appropriately without smearing everyone in the path.

    If you got a problem with Afforess, leave it at him. Don't smear the Spout dev's. Spout fan boys, do the same. If you don't like a Bukkit staffer, address it as such, don't smear the project or the other dev's who do good work. Its immature and defamatory.

    Bukkit is remaining on the path of strictly MC. Just being merged into official company capacity.

    Spout is continuing on the path it had from the beginning, forging new paths, taking on new risks and making a voxel game platform that will also allow MC to be played at a very high performance caliber.

    Can everyone just stop fighting until more concrete evidence emerges please? FFS already...
    Inscrutable and Don Redhorse like this.
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    We already mentionned that already, but we also said that Afforess represents spout.. What would you do if evil said the same things on the bukkit forums here against spout?
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    Look at this guy assuming something about Towny!
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    I have several issues with Bukkit particularly the representation of themselves & the politics behind the entire project (including the community management). BUT on that same note, I don't damn the project because the project was a community built thing and its very functional and useful piece. I would never bad mouth the project as a whole.

    But I have several issues with several high up staffers & what's gone on from the beginning so neither parties are innocent here. It just gets tiresome when someone takes a shot at X or Y and then say "well so and so represents it, so therefore, it all sucks". So if someones really doesn't like Seph, that means by inclusion, Bukkit also sucks. That doesn't fly. Just because Seph is the "official" head person doesn't make Seph == Bukkit. Nor does it make Afforess == Spout.

    To directly answer your question, Seph and several others of the core staff have said some very damning things in IRC logs. The key thing is...IRC is usually nice and private vs. the public depiction easily found on forums. Easier to hide a nasty opinion without daming yourself.
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    true, I'm sure they DO offend others, but it's the way you do it.. Afforess did in in plain public, at the main topic section of their forums.. But for sure, bukkit can use improvements in all parts of the project.
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    I don't agree what Afforess did in the way he wrote it. But he's his own person...he can do what he wants yeah? Seph does the same. He runs this project, he does what he wants, even if its atrocious (extreme censoring for instance).

    I just get tired of people sweeping everyone into Black vs White that's all without truly keeping to the specific issues within it all. <-- That's basically my main point here.
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    Ok thanks for sharing, I'm sure you changed our opinion in a way too, you did with mine at least= )
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    Where did I say that? I said it's mc design. I don't appreciate you putting words in my mouth.

    I'd ask evil to show us the facts. I have facts and quotes backing up my arguments - where are yours?

    I'm discovering most of you can't determine the difference between your opinions and a factual reality. If you guys have actual issues with the facts I used in my post (aka, I misrepresented something) say as much. If you guys have an issue because the facts are inconvenient, leave. I hear there are a lot of religions looking for members.
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    I never said you said it. I said spout team. And no it is not mc since the vanilla client works fine.
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    Fact: bukkit is doing very well, most of the plugins are updated for 1.2 and a RB will be here soon.
    Fact: bukkit has a way bigger and better community, that's what makes it better than yours, we back eachother up, we help eachother, check @ codename_b 's topic about plugin updating. Bukkit isn't dead and it won't be soon.
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    I never said Bukkit was dead. I said it was a zombie. Not quite dead but will be soon (2-3 months).

    Try again.
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