About bukkit =)

Discussion in 'Bukkit Discussion' started by zipron, Mar 9, 2012.

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    Now I've read this the other day on the spout forums (don't even know how I came there, because I'm not using spout) And I read this:
    @ http://forums.spout.org/threads/spout-the-same-chapter.1495/

    Now what about this? I personnaly think that they are upset because bukkit works together now with mojang and they try to convince players to use their server software. (And as far as I know, that isn't even ready) What do you guys know about it (I always thought spout was a plugin, not a server software package for MC =)

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    Well Spout is just like Bukkit, but they wanted to add more features to the actual game plus add GUIs. I think that is it. We all knew this was coming. Mojang talked modding API within the first year Minecraft was out. It was natural to select the Bukkit team because for a few reasons, the plugins seems more for server admins and the way the team handle moving away for hmod. It all makes sense to me. I don't think the Spout team is worried or angry after all they were both coding a mod for a $15 sandbox game. Although only one team is going to make some money in the end.
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    The whole thing is just childish and silly.

    Spout has been taking cheap shots at Bukkit for as long as they've been operational. Some of it is constructive, the rest is just petty.
    It's mostly a case of the pot calling the kettle black. They go out of their way to take a shot at Bukkit at every chance they get, legitimate or not.
    For a group that "doesn't want to fragment the community" and wants "everyone to work together" they sure have a lot of anger going around.

    On a related note, the same can be said for CanaryMod, except they're just less diplomatic about it. Now that bunch really flips tables by the dozens whenever Bukkit is mentioned anywhere.

    I could say something like "can't we all get along?", but I'd be lying. Personally I find it quite amusing watching all these communities getting their panties in a twist.
    They've got a holy war to fight and I'm thinking about getting a season viewers pass.
    S.L.P.Major, scar_, tyzoid and 2 others like this.
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    rofl ok, thanks for the replies =)
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    Actually they are just stating the obvious. Bukkit is going to die. Soon. This is why I'm stopping my server. All plugins are going to be in complete disarray. Plugins will have to be completely rewritten. For plugins such a Towny, that are huge, are not going to be around at the start of API development.

    This is a complete nightmare for server owners.
    tsuna25 and Windwaker like this.
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    I know how you think, plugins broken, server down. Now think about it like this:

    bukkit works with mojang now. Bukkit is (I think) more expierienced with the multiplayer side than mojang. Mojang however is more expierience with the singleplayer side AND they've written the code. What does that means you think for the future? less bugs, faster releases of craftbukkit and full compatibility. Yes, plugins is an issue. But that ain't mojang/bukkit's fault. It's because plugin developers have some other things to do than coding all the time. They do it free, without any payment except donations. Have you ever donated to your favorite plugin dev'ers? You'll have to same issue if you go to spout or another server mod.

    I know it is frustrating, but atm I have a vanilla server because my plugins are broken, and it's pretty fun =) So maybe you shouldn't think of stopping, but see it as an improvement for the future =)

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    Doesn't really change the way they go about it or the severity regarding it.
    They're comparing it to the hMod transition where the mod died before a suitable replacement was made.
    I'd have a ton more respect for Spout if they went about their business differently.

    While partially factual, their arguments are also heavily skewed, as they always have (especially other claims they make in the comments of that thread and on their forums in general).
    They're misrepresenting the situation and the transition period. Especially regarding the limited amount of information that is available as well as the long time frame we're looking at.
    Yet Spout does the best they can to spin this off as an immediate danger, spreading needless fear among users as they push their agenda.
    There might even be a Bukkit compatibility layer, but they're completely disregarding this possibility, as they disregard many other possibilities that don't fit their agenda.

    Spout seems to believe they need to fight a PR war, topics like quoted in the OP is the result of this.
    efstajas likes this.
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    But how is it much different? Bukkit will become obsolete because of the conflict of interests between the team, they want to work on the Minecraft API and put Bukkit behind them.

    Sorry what claims are skewed? Links are provided to credible sources, the only thing that is skewed are the people attacking Spout for "attacking" Bukkit who are obviously uneducated about the situation.

    Anyone with common sense could deduct that the API will take months to complete or even get to a production level. Being a closed source project, the team cannot use any Bukkit code because it's licensed under GPL.

    Wha? It's addressed that there could be a compatibility layer, but it is unlikely, which is the truth.

    The truth is, the hiring of the Bukkit team means nothing for Spout, unlike Bukkit, Spout doesn't end with Minecraft, it's not meant to be a Minecraft server but rather a voxel-platform for other games that could be implemented with it in the future. The Vanilla plugin for Spout is what provides Minecraft functionality to Spout. It even goes further then that, the SpoutClient project will extend this by allowing developers to even make their own games, and who knows what is to come after Spout from SpoutDev?
    Inscrutable and maniacmusic like this.
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    That's a very nice idea of course, but than (in my opinion) I think they shouldn't use minecraft as a start. They use an existing game now to make their code, so that means all "new" games that work with spout will look a lot like MC... if they really wanted to create a platform for many games, why do they focus on MC and why do they post (see quote in my first post) such rage announcements against bukkit?

    I personnaly don't think bukkit will stop, it's closed source now indeed, so maybe if the team can't keep up, they will make it open source? I just think the whole spout idea is very blunty and only focussed on one aspect of the whole project, bukkit and MC. Anyways, that's my opinion, we can all have a different =)

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    There's a non-trivial quantity of code in Bukkit that simply cannot be included in any new Mojang API, because it's GPL'd, and written by contributors other than the core dev team who've been hired by Mojang. This means that the new API will not be Bukkit. It might look somewhat like Bukkit, but it won't be Bukkit. So plugin devs will need to learn a new API. Our plugins will need some portation work.

    What does this means for plugin devs like me? Depends on a few factors:
    1. How soon will the new Mojang API be released? We don't know that yet, a few months I guess.
    2. How soon will Spout be stable enough to use as a general Minecraft server, with all the functionality that Bukkit has today? We don't know that yet, a few months I guess.
    3. What compatibility measures will be in place to allow current plugins to run? Both Mojang/Spout have stated there will be some, but we don't how good either layer will be yet.
    4. How will the two new API's stack up against each other technically, both in ease of use and power? My feeling right now is that Spout will be a lot more powerful (it should be possible to do much more in terms of entity control and custom block & entity creation, for example), but perhaps Mojang will pleasantly surprise us.
    5. What will uptake of the two servers be like? Even if Spout is ten times better technically, that will mean little of only 1% of server admins actually decide to use it.
    There is a lot of vitriol been flung around at the moment, but most of it is from a fairly vocal minority on both sides. I don't speak for anyone else, but I suspect there is a larger majority of devs (like me) who are just watching unfolding events with interest, and waiting to decide which API to work against. I'm not writing either off at this point.
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    Interesting for sure, I suppose we'll have to wait a few months indeed =)
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    Yes, absolutely. The apparent sense of panic is really hard for me to understand. I just play on a temporary survival map to scratch my Minecraft itch until things settle out. What's the big deal?
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    I honestly think those things Spout writes about Bukkit are totally immature. They could have at least congratulated the bukkit team. Look at my comments on page 36 on the thread if you want.
    For a project that serious, it's not good to have a rage post sticked to the front door. If I was new to this stuff, I'd go to their page and immediately think "Oh well, these guys aren't nice" and close the page without getting information on how awesome the Spout Project actually is (it is, really).
    Afforess seems to be an aggressive and easily-offended guy.

    Edit.: I actually think that the transition to the official API won't be that bad. They surely will provide at least something like a compatibility layer.

    The "big deal" is the updating for server admins, I guess. It's easy normally, but when there's a plugin- breaking update, it becomes a pain in the ass.

    EDIT by Moderator: merged posts, please use the edit button instead of double posting.
    Last edited by a moderator: May 24, 2016
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    Really, I think you are reading into it way to much. No where is Afforess "raging" about Bukkit, and what's immature about it specifically? He's just telling the truth and putting it bluntly. Would you rather Spout dance around the elephant in the room, or actually voice their opinion like they did?
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    I think half the reason the Spout people are so mad is because they were trying to make a real competitor to Bukkit, one born out of anger as well it seems, and now whatever Bukkit turns into is going to be *the* standard, likely relegating Spout to forever being a small niche community (like Tekkit). And I understand why that hurts, but the public flaming was a huge turnoff to me as well. No grace whatsoever. I would have considered using it before that, but not now. In any case, both forum threads were totally overblown. Most people didn't even know what happened and never will. Nor do they need to...
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    I doubt that there will be MONTHS of downtime. I'm sure there will be some downtime, but it'll be worth it in the long-run. I ain't worried at all.
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    Have you read any of this thread? You are very misinformed, the only reason Spout started as a standalone server is because they were limited by CraftBukkit and didn't like the bleeding system, please tell me how that is hate.... You also clearly didn't read the post or over-read the post because there was nothing angry about it.

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    I read well more than both of those original OPs, including many pages of comments by proponents on both sides. I've also read past posts, arguing about all manner of things (like open source licensing). My opinion as stated is my own and I stand by it. I respect your love of Spout, I'm just not going to be there with you :)
    zipron likes this.
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    He's thinking of the worst that could happen and plays as if he knows what will happen. After all, we're all just speculating about the API and the transformation progress.
    I think it's immature of Spout to insult and make fun of bukkit all the time. That shouldn't happen. Bukkit doesn't do it, either.
    Thanks for tagging in Afforess by the way, let's see what he says about this.
    Vhab likes this.
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    efstajas Tanite Windwaker

    first of all, know that we can all have another opinion, respect eachother's please. Now for the bukkit vs spout thing, I'm not that familliar with both the projects, I've been hosting a server with bukkit for over a year now, never cared about API's, as long as my server and plugins worked. So that broke since 1.2 xD (it's getting fixed though, most of the plugins are 1.2 updated now) But remember most of bukkit/spout admins do not care about the project, they want a server and they think bukkit or spout is an easy way to host it, without caring about the background coding. Who can blame them? As long as you don't develop plugins, who cares about how things work?

    Seconc thing to keep in mind: part of the bukkit teams works now for mojang, and people think (such as mr. spout I quoted in my first post) bukkit will die soon. Bukkit has a huge community! it has lot's and lot's of plugin developers, and even more users of it. So why do people think the team will let this project fall and start working on new things and ignoring bukkit? I can only see this as an advantage bukkit works for mojang now. We will get better, less buggy code.

    The reason I started this post was because I was chocked by the way an important spout guy offends bukkit. (I don't know him though, it was "first impression of spout forum"). Ok, it are two "rivals" having the same (not really) goals. But imo you should always be respectfull to eachother, if not, people like me and efstajas will read it and think "what? is this the leader of spout? no thanks!" I was honestly considering to go to spout in the future, because of the many possibilities. Now I see this guy, I don't want to. Not because I think it's a bad project, but because that guy is the leader of their community (or not? Like I said, I don't know him, but considering the fact he posts announcements, he must have a big role in the spout project) and he doesn't act very professional.. Of course I understand if people don't agree, but don't rage =)

    efstajas and Tsmuktengan like this.
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    Thank you for your post, I no longer feel like the only one to be deceived reading such negative bashing and reactions against other people or projects.

    As a recent and therefore newcomer to Minecraft server administration, whatever API I use, I have been pretty shocked by the projects's attitude, especially between Spout and Bukkit, and I do not understand all this huge negative fuss. I have been essentially deceived by Spout members (mainly Affores) attacking Bukkit and some of it's members. This is not a proof of serious and maturity and I have been strongly discouraged by testing Spout reading such flamewar articles and posts.

    I hope the Bukkit community has a more adult behavior and Spout's will improve. FOSS does not excuse this kind of attitude. And I don't want to use or donate for a project that has such a bad behavior towards other projects. Do BSD projects (FreeBSD, NetBSD, OpenBSD and DragonFly) behave like this? No. Instead, they share code when there are good ideas and focus on their projects to do a good job. They don't spend their time in pointless flamewars.

    Thankfully not all the Spout community members are like this. I do not know if there is this in the Bukkit community as well. But talking with a Spout plugin developer on their IRC showed one that was able to understand entirely my point of vue on this I explain here, although he does think EvilSeph is a liar (and here it goes again... why should I care?! I can't even check it and there is no element to support this!). But there are other people on Spout's side that do not stand this aggressive behavior.

    In other words, I have no idea on how the Bukkit project will continue. All I can say is that it seems still active and progressing nicely towards 1.2.3, and Spout project IS interesting despite the very deceiving attitude the project highlights.

    So, please avoid and sanction this kind of attitude that is extremely annoying. It is great to read constructive opinions and facts, but it is extremely annoying to read baseless speculations, trolling and accusations especially when pointing at another similar project.

    My two cents...
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    Maybe it's time for devs to start writing their own API's that they can implement in whatever "subset" of minecraft they happen to be running on?
    dadaemon likes this.
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    BananAPI, GO.


    ... Banana.P.I., Private Investigator?
    MsInscrutable, tyzoid and efstajas like this.
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    I already did that for bPermissions hence why I have a semi-working spout version building too :p
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    Surely let us not think all spout members are rage-looking creatures. And pretty sure that they have a lot of good and nice dev'ers. The only problem is that one person "represents" the whole project of spout (one person could be a team ofcourse, like I already stated, I'm not familiar with the spout community). But that one person represents the whole project. That's sad about it..

    codename_B API by dev's? hmm I don't think that'll work out.. or at least not in the near future. Maybe once we know what bukkit will give us after a few months mojang, yes, people could start buidling their own API, but surely not yet, let's just wait in patience and see what bukkit does =)

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    What I mean is like keeping common classes like data serialisation, database methods, and api seperate to the implementation so that api can be re-used meaning less code-changes for devs in the end!

    Take a look here for an example

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    Yea I've only started with this API two days ago xD haven't managed to do anything but creating a flat world xD I'm sure you know what you're doing so I'll let that topic be for the master dev'rs in stead of me xD
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    As a server owner I don't have any major opinions on the API my mods run. What I do look at is the number of availible mods and the number of active members. What I have seen over time is this;

    Vanilla: decent userbase but a large number of mods conflict
    Bukkit: decent userbase with few conflicting mods, easy to work with
    Canary: small userbase and few mods
    Spout Server: Far from ready but has some intresting goals
    Vanilla + new modding API: Far from ready

    I think it is premature to make judgments regrading the "winner" of two pieces of software when neither is ready use.

    I love the fact that Spout is working on a multithreaded app from the start as that seems to be one of the biggest limitations with the server software. I like the way they are structuring things and the state of the spout logs are very informative but at this time the software is still an alpha build. I tried out a build a few weeks back, it didn't have the ability to save the world. There was plenty of other things missing\unfinished but if it doesn't save the world what else matters. In a year they could have a server software package that you are a fool not to use or the group could be screwing around working out problems vanilla fixed ages ago or they may have broken up due to personal issues.

    In a year the new vanilla modding API could be powerful, easy to use and have a great following. In a year it could be a really "cute" way to bind a new Bukkit equivalent to a vanilla server and nothing in the end will have really changed.

    At this point though we don't have any solid information, Spout says they will be all that and the bag of chips as does Mojang. I know I wont be making any decisions for some time. Heck they may both turn out to be everything they say they will be and I expect to go with the one with the bigger community with more mods simply because support and mod selection will be better.

    This also doesn't take into mind that (unless I'm mistaken) Bukkit, being open source could conceivably be taken over by a new group of people and continued. Just because Dinnerbone and the others may be too busy with their new job to give Bukkit the massive amounts of time it needs doesn't mean a new group can't continue it. With the removal of depreciated code it would be easier for a new group too.

    Just my 2 gold nuggets on the subject.
    Windwaker likes this.
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    I like how nobody asks me my opinion and just ascribes emotions to me.

    From afar I probably appear a troll because I'd rather state the unfiltered truth and burn at the stake for it. The truth is often inconvenient.

    But if you have specific questions I'd be happy to answer them.
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    what is your opinion =)
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